1.5" thick repro UHMW crosser (elevated-belt) with 1/8" steel insert

[kghills]

That's pretty cool Buzz. I think after watching a couple of the videos you posted that the blades inserted in the grousers would work well where you ride. Having a MaxIV that came with factory rubber waffle tracks and a tub with a giant patch and lots of other damage to the body from the old rubber tracks your wide rubber belting towards the tub scares the heck out of me. As I am sure you know, if that track gets pushed towards the body it will burn though before you know it. I mean it's amazing how fast it can happen. Be super careful!

Keep us up to date, Keith.

[Buzz]

Here is the main question I have Buzz, the full track designs swims. Maybe not great, but they do swim. My question is: Will the half track design kill or help the swim speed. That is a question that can only be answered in a test run and I hope that you will inform forum members so we will know if this is a good or bad option in regards to swimming. I do see a lot of advantages and disadvantages so we will have to see.

Buzz I saw Mud Bugs Mudd Ox equipped with Adair tracks at River Run ATV park. The machine was not a great swimmer because of the weight, but it did swim in calm waters, so I have a little real life experience for comparison purposes.

I've always wondered about the swimming myself Dan. We'll have to see. I do think a good option might be to use 8" max wheels so a little less bouyancy is lost, but it does require to to use a narrower crosser to fit the 10" wide tires out there. The 12" rims gave me more options in the 12" wide tire arena and of course Vendetta-land.

[Buzz]

Oh boy, I couldn't agree more Keith. You know I was anxious enough to fit up the tracks as-is so I could get the length and hinges done, but I plan to trim probably an inch or so off the inner belt. Right now I've only got maybe 3/4" maybe slightly more. I personally prefer to have 1.5" or thereabouts for exactly what you describe. Not worth taking a chance!

[rockrewls]

Looks interesting buzz, would love some feed back and vids with these.

[MAX IV Mark]

Something I was thinking about with this type of track. The grousers actually bite the ground when they run from the tire to the flat area (they move closer together) and spread open when moving onto the back tire. Being a HDPE or UMHD material it doesn't make much difference, because they just slide. But I bet if you bolted some rubber teeth on the bottom you would grab the terrain when climbing hills with rocks or roots. Could be used to an advantage, be able to climb like a centapede.............hmmmmmm

[ARGOJIM]

Something I was thinking about with this type of track. The grousers actually bite the ground when they run from the tire to the flat area (they move closer together) and spread open when moving onto the back tire. Being a HDPE or UMHD material it doesn't make much difference, because they just slide. But I bet if you bolted some rubber teeth on the bottom you would grab the terrain when climbing hills with rocks or roots. Could be used to an advantage, be able to climb like a centapede.............hmmmmmm

That's what I was thinking with the Argo plastic tracks as well, 1 inch strips across track center sections would probably work for them.

[Buzz]

Got the tracks done and installed. Now to just get out and ride around.

[thorn]

Got the tracks done and installed. Now to just get out and ride around.

Well the beast looks like it could crawl over anything that is for sure. I am curious how the dual track set up is going to perform for you. VIDEOS, we want VIDEOS!!!

[Buzz]

Yes VIDEOS....we'll shoot for daylight tomorrow. Took it for a short drive, and everything felt great....all tread-speeds and crosser-cleats speeds are matched up just right...all free horsepower. Gear-reduction in play as expected. The crossers can adjust naturally as they wrap the end tires. I indexed the tires in the normal fashion anyway.

lots of traction. Not as aggressive as all-steel escargos (they have probably 3 times the height in vertical steel), but these still have lots of traction. Tracks are 25 1/2" wide. Trimmed 1/2" from inner belt.

[Buzz]

heres the first video. Remember the tracks are very loose and still drive just fine. There are times when the tires slipped on me, but the tracks are extremely loose. For what it's worth, the dual tracks were not able to drive up the same frozen hill as in the "all-uhmw vs. all-steel escargo" video that I posted last year. The steel inserts are not as tall as the Escargos, but these dual tracks still did pretty well. The biggest thing was to test the matching tire-tread and crosser-component speeds w/o track tuners, and this part worked. These crossers would benefit from a taller steel insert.

[mightymaxIV]

heres the first video. Remember the tracks are very loose and still drive just fine. There are times when the tires slipped on me, but the tracks are extremely loose. For what it's worth, this track could NOT drive up the same frozen hill as in the "all-uhmw vs. all-steel escargo" video that I posted last year. The steel cleats are not as tall as the Escargos, but these dual tracks still did pretty well. The biggest thing was to test the matching tire-tread and crosser-component speeds w/o track tuners.

Climbed up frozen snow covered creek beds, over small trees, over frozen piles of logs, through ditches, what else could you ask for? Your machine and tire/track combination seems to excel in every area. Congratulations Buzz! Thanks for taking time to video and post the results.

[bigbuck]

WOW!!!!!!!! That is AWESOME!

[Buzz]

Climbed up frozen snow covered creek beds, over small trees, over frozen piles of logs, through ditches, what else could you ask for? Your machine and tire/track combination seems to excel in every area. Congratulations Buzz! Thanks for taking time to video and post the results.

Thanks Dan. You don't know unless you try, right? I think taller cleats would have helped in a few spots, and these duals I think aren't quite as good as a single track in the most difficult steep obstacle climb outs. Taller cleats might help. I know I've lost some buoyancy with the tire/rim combo that I used, although a good portion of the track is fairly buoyant. Maybe an 8" tire/rim combo might be better?

[kghills]

Now that was a great video. The last couple videos posted by you Buzz have really helped me get a much better idea of the terrain you are trying to master with your tracks. I honestly envisioned a much snowier environment. Is the amount of snow you have now normal up where you are. I figured you would have at least 3-4 feet on the ground. I think we have more snow here in Wisconsin right now than what you show in your video. I guess I am curious now after seeing the video why you think the UHMW with an insert is better for you than an all steel type Escargo track. Is it just the weight? Also I was thinking wouldn't maybe studs be better than blades in the UHMW for what your doing? In any case that was very cool and I am glad you took the time to share it with everybody.

Keith.

[Buzz]

the snow here in town is very little. There is deep snow to be found...just not close to town. You probably do have more snow I'm sure. In fact, we've had extremely warm weather while the rest of our friends in the lower 48 have been pounded with snow and cold. Really strange this year. The snow blower thinks I don't love it anymore. Should make for an early spring so we'll have some excellent argo type riding I guess.

So far the elevated belt all-steel escargo tracks work the best up here on all amphibious machines. Better than any UHMW track made by anyone. But UHMW can be pretty tough if you use quality material...and it's slightly less dense than water. So, trying to incorporate it's use could arguably reduce some payload "in the water". Is it enough to make it worth it? We'll see. Sometimes you go round and round in a circle to end up right back at the steel cleat because it's really a good option when you consider all the factors, and this style track is my absolute favorite.

It's only normal to use the "good" parts from multiple designs. I prefer the blades as that's what escargo uses, and they just flat out work. They have more length to "bite" and more holding power on steep/traction-dependant situations. Much like a single small willow doesn't have much holding power to winch to....but if you combine lots of them into more surface area they're very strong.
What I've found is that you really need some significant blade-height though too...to really be able to go most anywhere you want towing/climbing or in cold temperatures. Typically on hardback, the traction part of an elevated belt track is located directly under the tire. To make a "blade" within a UHMW crosser taller, clearance becomes an issue as does plastic body height remaining for insertion of a blade. These particular bladed crossers (3/8" steel sticking out) do very well, but they not quite have the bite of the all-steel escargo. Spookum's blades should have additional traction but require additional clearance. Now, the All-steel escargo accomplishes having 1.25" overall height...all of which is vertical steel blade....simply because of the design and fabrication of the crosser. It's hard to replicate the exact benefits of that crosser in UHMW without modifying the gound-contact shape to be more square....similar to spookum's but even more so....to allow the outer part of the crosser to accept taller, more aggressive pieces of angle iron. Although doing so "might" affect how the track turns on top of certain conditions. I know escargo has tested lots of different shapes and widths inner/outer to ultimately settle on the "radius" shape and width. I'm testing another version of Spookum's shape..and I'll let you know how it works. The most important thing is to maintain the most important and reliable aspect of the track...the elevated belt. Escargo kinda has it figured out. Ask them, they'll even recommend track tuners (especially on their new tracks as the wheel speed difference is more, crosser spacing increased, and new tires more aggressive).

I think the current All-steel Escargo is hard to beat.

If you want to shoot holes.....(split hairs really)....the only thing to improve on an all-steel escargo track is to maybe make it more buoyant in the water. Not lighter, but a bit more buoyant in the water I guess. But...you could make your wheels more buoyant too. Some things just benefit from the strength of steel. Even UHMW tracks still require fasteners and belting. The all-steel escargo track currently weights around 145 lbs I think for an argo-avenger sized machine (thats the larger aggressive cleat over 25" tires...not the smaller paddles shown on some argo frontier tests), and I believe they're asking $3900 at the moment last time I talked to them. It is able to utilize shorter grade-8 bolts because of the crosser design which saves a little weight. Rubber belting weighs "less" in the water. But at the end of the day, the crossers are heavy duty, and they do add some payload in the water. If payload equivalent to 1 passenger is too much, then I think your machine is over-loaded or not set up properly for water use. The all-steel escargo weight is simply not an issue.
They have a very reasonable weight, and so far it's very difficult to make an improved version in UHMW w/o making some compromises. It's very easy to make other Non-Elevated Belt track styles in UHMW, but they make more compromises.
Please remember, I'm talking about working in all conditions all the time, with a load, on all machines, with all tire types. It's aggressive, has floatation, can be run loose, and doesn't ever fall off. Small engines love the design and performance.
That's why I experiment with Escargo's design. It makes me chuckle when I see folks try to speak poorly of the track...for lack of experience plain and simple.
The track does not need an ice cleat kit, or even a winter kit if you simply have them use wider main-belts. It's pretty much turn key right out of the shoot minus tuner/spacers like a rubber track would use, and the Escargos will work everywhere.
Kinda funny, but I've seemingly come full circle back to the Escargo.
Here is one more drawing that I'm going to play with....to test some cross-linked outdoor specific ultra wear-resistant material. You never know unless you try right? My 1.5" repro already has some decent gouging and a few mushroom marks on the corners from the first cold-weather ride (maybe an hour) where ice and rocks were encountered. I even have steel inserts which take some of the abuse. Not a giant deal so far...