1.5" thick repro UHMW crosser (elevated-belt) with 1/8" steel insert

[2014SE]

Great video!! I was another one looking forward to seeing how these tracks would work out. Definitely not near as much snow as we have here in Alberta but I'm sure the tracks would work fine in deeper snow too.

It's great to hear from someone who tries all the different track types and configurations and shares it with the rest of us here.

I think most people rip on Escargo tracks because they spent their $$$ on UHMW and don't want to admit theirs something out there that's better than what they bought. Most people can't afford to try different track styles and ounce they buy what they have they feel obligated to defend their purchase, understandably. I know the feeling too but let's keep a open mind to what's out there. Escargo tracks are not cheap, their probably the most expensive tracks for a AATV but this is definitely a case of you get what you pay for.

My decision to buy Escargo's come from looking at videos on here (6X6 world) and YouTube, reading on the net and logic. The square edges of rubber tracks are going to be hard to turn, Adair tracks are quite square on the corners as well. I know from years running logging equipment thin steel grousers bite allot better than a thick grouser to a rubber track can. The design of the grouser on Escargo tracks made perfect scenes to me, thin with rounded edges to let the machine turn. I'll say it again, their is no one track for every situation but in my opinion Escargo is the better of all track designs.

It was interesting to read how Buzz honestly admitted after all the time, effort and $$ put into his tracks still admitted he thinks the all steel grouser design is probably a better for all around design! That's honesty at its finest. I like to see and read about the different ideas and see them play out, their is only one way to know and it's trial and error.

I was surprised to see the tires slip in the tracks, maybe a different tire with a softer compound and/or different tread pattern and slightly shortening the belts may rectify that issue?? Again trial and error will answer that question.

I will be home next weekend and looking forward to taking my argo out again and will most likely shoot some video and post them, got to try out my that Garmin Virb camera. Hopefully better video than from my iPhone!!

I have to give Buzz a A+ for effort and ingenuity.

[Buzz]

thanks man....the one thing that makes it easy is that it's a hell of a lot of fun, right? The tires slipped a couple times briefly under heavy load but would always start driving the tracks again. It just goes to show how this style crosser easily allows for slipping even on end-wrap tires, and also that the design can be run very loose without being problematic in falling off. The looseness of the track was mostly to blame but it would still drive no problem. I could very easily remove 4-5" of track length on each track.

[2014SE]

thanks man....the one thing that makes it easy is that it's a hell of a lot of fun, right? The tires slipped a couple times briefly under heavy load but would always start driving the tracks again. It just goes to show how this style crosser easily allows for slipping even on end-wrap tires, and also that the design can be run very loose without being problematic in falling off. The looseness of the track was mostly to blame but it would still drive no problem. I could very easily remove 4-5" of track length on each track.

I was thinking about this at work today, if you had argo style tires with grips that go across the tire it would grip the crossers like a sprocket. I was looking at my Escargo's one day in the garage and noticed how the tire treads had a positive grip on the tracks.

[Buzz]

yeah, the at189 tire tread is able to really grab the crossers. What's cool with the elevated-belt track (depending on the width and shape of the crossers) is that the individual crosser cleat "tips" are not connected to anything out at the tire-tread level, so they can move quite a bit in relation to one another.....even though the guide-portion of the crosser is affixed to the elevated belt. My point I guess is that the crosser cleat "tips" can be grabbed by the tire, and the tips can self-adjust to settle-in so as to best cooperate with the tire circumference and tread. You're not as limited to a given "pitch" so to speak. It lets someone like you take advantage of the "sprocket" concept of your tires. The self-adjusting of the crosser cleat-tips is a relief-factor in my mind that allows everything to match up better.

Lucky for all of us, if you index your tires properly on all tracks (all designs), then the front shouldn't really "have" to slip, but the 3 axles behind it will. They can easier than the front (the center two for obvious reasons).
But, the self-adjusting of elevated belt crosser cleat-tips (that's a tongue twister)...helps..and can really help to drive the track if you've got certain tires.

[Buzz]

2014SE, I've always been kinda curious if your tires on an escargo track.....as long as the track had at least a little bit of tension......would drive the track reliably with just the front axle driving.
Now normally with any other track, I would say hell no, been there done that....just doesn't work...even with the axles 1/2/3 going. Drop the 4th axle and you're done as soon as you encounter any significant load. But, that was just using end-wrap friction of the track....not the "sprocket" side-loading of the tire lugs of the 189's.

I'm almost 99% sure it wouldn't work, but the 189 tire tread with a little more track tension makes me curious I guess.

Oh well, with track tuners, the only tire that would need to slip (and/or crossers adjust really) is the rear tire on your track, and it does so effortlessly with how these crossers are affixed and how they can move out at the tire tread. We already know that just driving the corners tires for sure drives the track reliably.

[2014SE]

I'm quitting my job today and will be heading home later this morning or tomorrow and will look closer at this, 12 hour truck ride! The tire fits in the tracks quite snug, the belts are snug against the sides of the tire and they made the crossers so it is snug on the tire. Like he made it to fit!! I don't know if one tire can drive either, it would have to be TIGHT and on these light duty machines this may lead to premature breakdown and when the tires are wet your loosing traction on the track. Interesting thought and may be a interesting test, trial and error project.

[Buzz]

here's how a few rocks, ice, and frozen things leave their mark on reprocessed UHMW after one short ride.

[Buzz]

While maintaining an "elevated belt" crosser shape like escargo, I think that for UHMW there is a lot of merit to adding more paddle (with traction) near the ground on the outside. It would allow for more UHMW material (height) under the tire compared to a bladed version, would increase surface area, and allow for the addition of a very tall traction cleat to the outer part of the track (if wanted). You wouldn't have to give up some UHMW material to make room for the blade to stay within an acceptable overall height. If the outer part of the track can grab, it becomes even easier to get a purchase onto obstacles. By keeping them "elevated belt" in this design, it would maintain the guide stability and gear reduction. You'd have more material farther under the tire in the water and higher out of the water...above the tire. I'm going to test a tougher material too just to see. There is room for improvement on the UHMW side of things- a taller fatter-bodied crosser with taller angle-iron (not u-channel) cleat....slid over the same (2) outer crosser bolts, and a tougher, more outdoor specific UHMW.

it's weird, some of the hybrid versions we've made with narrower but taller straight UHMW crossers don't seem to get their corners beat up as much. So like everything, it's about finding that perfect balance.

[rockrewls]

Hey Buzz, the repro seems like it doesn't hold up so well I would hate to see that track in 10 yrs.

[Buzz]

Hey Buzz, the repro seems like it doesn't hold up so well I would hate to see that track in 10 yrs.

Yeah, it makes you curious anyway doesn't it. Normally, I've always used taller cleat heights because of the potential wear/breakdown of the edges. These crossers have less plastic height which was done to test a wide blade insert. The next ones will have taller uhmw with taller traction cleats on the "outer" part of the crosser only, and they'll be a better plastic too. So I'll have an idea how hard it is to beat up a different blend. So far, steel is hard to beat in this department. But if you put steel all the way across from one paddle to the other...you can bend the crosser and it won't spring back. A shorter traction add-on on the outer crosser only won't be tweaked by any twisting of the uhmw crosser. When the twisting does happen, the uhmw seems to spring back.

[Buzz]

FYI, I connected the dual tracks back into the standard single long track on either side. It's still 25.5" wide but is now wrapping the argo at189 25x12x9 tires.

I did find out today that a long, single track on either side worked better than dual-tracks as far as climbing "bite" on steep hills. Wasn't really surprised, but I figured it was worth testing with the exact same machine and the exact same track crossers/belting width ect.

I'll try to get some video of the single track tomorrow!

[rockrewls]

Sweet look forward to the vids, I wonder what type of UHMW Adair uses?? If its the kind you've experimented with I would be concerned!

[Buzz]

After a few big dings, you definitely start thinking about the long-term that's for sure. For some guys the reprocessed plastic itself will probably hold up alright in their conditions if the cleat is tall enough- I think so anyway. Of course there are other factors as to whether or not a UHMW cleat will be effective in each person's riding area. I believe Adair has described before that they primarily use reprocessed UHMW but have also tried other materials (that's what I remember). I don't know if they have tried other grades of UHMW or not-I'm not really sure. Reprocessed can have some bang for the buck (in UHMW land) depending on how it's used. Even UHMW's lowest grade (reprocessed) is better than the HDPE used in our tubs and in argo's supertracks for example.

The biggest factors..toughness and wear-life. Less important for light machines in warmer climates or machines that don't ever deal with hard objects. It does have a certain amount of wear-life depending on your cleat height. Your tracks can be subject to significant impacts especially when rocks or hard terrain is around (sometimes everything gets hard when the temp drops). Then there is the long-term breakdown factor too. Some of the stuff up here just starts cracking over time. The wrong UHMW can be concerning in super cold, mores with thinner stuff or thin-walled areas that take a significant load, but...I guess all we can do is test away, and take the UHMW manufacturer's advice on what to use. It think it's important to maintain thickness in all directions, and try to use the best stuff in hopes of getting the best durability possible, especially if you're going to suffer hard impacts and abrasion where you ride, and huge temperature swings...some grades do not expand/contract near as much...fasteners come into play....think about deck fasteners.
It all comes down to how much you want to spend...it doesn't take long before the "budget" side of a UHMW track can go right out the window to do it right. Reprocessed is a compromise based on price. Another option to consider.

[kghills]

Here is a picture I took of my reprocessed UHMW grouser on my Adair tracks after about 100hrs of use.

They started at 1.125" tall and are now about 1.100" tall in some places. I asked Tim about using the reprocessed UHMW compared to other grades when I picked up this set of tracks. Tim said they had tested a number of different grades and found that the reprocessed actually lasted longer and gave more traction. Initially you will find the top sort of mushrooms over and gives a slight edge that actually seems to help traction. It sort of stops after the initial mushrooming is what Tim told me and what I am finding in actual use. I would think with the number of tracks you are making for people Buzz you would notice it in tool wear also. The reprocessed UWMW is definitely harder on tooling and the cutters seem to loose their keen edge faster. As a grouser material I think the reprocessed UHMW ends up being tougher, not a compromise in my opinion.

I know it doesn't get as cold here in WI as it does there in AK. It is only -10degF this morning and it will warm up to 4degF later today so maybe where it is really cold like your conditions there is a better choice. Here is a video of my Max plowing up by the house at about 0DegF.

This was after plowing my 1/2 mile long gravel driveway that is now ice covered. My tracks don't get the greatest traction on the ice but I can move 4-6" of light snow by just sort of keeping the tracks spinning a bit. But the Max IV is sort of a light vehicle not really designed for work I guess.

Here is a video of the warmer climate in Indiana at Haspin Acres. I was able to climb the rocks OK with no noticeable grouser damage.

The rocks may be softer in Indiana though, I'm not sure.

I think the steel inserts are a very good option for some of your environment and maybe and all steel escargo design is even better. I would probably have a set if I lived up there and never trailered my machine with something nice. I still believe however that the market overall is very small. The weight and aggressive nature of the steel insert just doesn't seem desirable by most. I again point to the number of sales of Escargo tracks and requests for steel inserts in Adair tracks. That doesn't mean they are bad or a bad idea I just think it's a tough sell to the majority of track buyers. I still also wonder a little bit about the floatation in the really deep snow of the elevated belt design. I understand it can stay on better but it seems like a fair amount of the track would sink into the snow before the elevated belt would offer any sort of floatation and if it folds up when you contact a tree does it really help support the weight of the heavier machines you are intending them for? Here are a couple videos of the kind of snow I am wondering about.

Thanks, Keith.

[Buzz]

arguably reprocessed uhmw has decent toughness in the world of plastic, but it's not the best in the world of UHMW that's for sure. In the right design, I think reprocessed can be an appropriate material. The thought that squished/scuffed or mushroomed edges are beneficial for traction seems silly to me. You know as well as I do, you'd need to add real traction cleats for that. It's just a sign of wear, and maybe that's okay. Just so we have accurate info...you say reprocessed uhmw is tougher than....maybe some clarification would help members or others considering plastic tracks.....tougher than HDPE or other lesser grade plastics (below uhmw)...I"ll give you that. But in the category of UHMW, reprocessed is at the bottom of the barrel, and there are some pretty nifty crosslinked grades that are "specifically" rated for full-time outdoor use. These are a step above even the virgin density...which itself is a step above reprocessed. Think hip replacements.

we have really unique hard rocks up here, I'm sure they're much harder than yours...eeh heee

I'm actually going to try some different traction ideas aside from the blades. Hope you don't think for a second I'm trying to peddle blades. Sharing info yes. That's why I'm testing and sharing w/everyone. Maybe I'll find something different that is as effective and still acceptable for turning.

You don't have to worry one bit about enough floatation in deep mud or snow. There are plenty of videos around shoring that. It's all about surface area and belt-width. A wide elevated-belt track works excellent and actually has big paddles too. And cleans out the best.

heavier 8x8 machines or standard weight 8x8 machines that want to carry large hunting or utility loads simply benefit from a different style of track and potentially material. Maybe steel is where it's at? I'm just playing around to see if different materials/traction styles are also beneficial.

I'm happy to help people in my area with similar machines get some quality info though. Some people make assumptions after seeing videos that aren't really representative of what they and their machines are going to be facing in the backcountry.