Adair classic tracks

[Buzz]

Buggyman you are right. Opinions are a tough thing.

Keith- I'm not calling anybody greedy. I'm specifically comparing track styles and costs as I'm pretty familiar with both ofthese designs. It would be easy enough to build a much less expensive pro-style track and still make really good money. If you want to "budgetize" the "classic" style design. This tends to diminish the value of similar tracks like escargo. Everything has a different "value" to each of us. I don't see the pro-crosser taking $1100-1200 more machining time in addition to the $300-400 upgrade from 1" to 1.5" UHMW is made when compared to the classic design. It uses (2) fasteners per crosser vs. (4) on the classic. No mention no backer plates. You get more pro crossers from a sheet (unless maybe you're making really skinny classics?) so you still end up with extras even after using 4 or 5 more per side. Those extras roll over pretty quickly towards building another track.

I understand that a "bladed" track as you call it has already been made. I was told Adair was also working on a hybrid concept back when I first started posting videos of the Escargo Hybrid experiments we were playing around with. I also understood that that track was ultimately too "labor intensive." I get that- it's a bummer, but if time is worth anything, a bladed version should be quite a bit more expensive. I encourage anyone else to sell/offer that. I might actually feel like I accomplished something by pushing it. I know it's the only one I'd recommend for Alaska, and I've spent a lot of money on disappointment.
I also think that a bladed version needs to have thicker walls on either side of the steel flat bar, the insert needs to be deep and well supported, and sandwiched tight with through-and-through fasteners, not simply threaded screws that bite into the "remaining" wall thickness from an off-set insert. If somebody makes this style track at a fair price, I would absolutely recommend it. No problem. I don't care who makes it, but that style is the only one that I seeing working worth a damn up here.
For some of you guys down there in the marsh and mud, the standard "classic track" is going to work well. And if you want traction, you simply get a bladed version. I'm sure Tim would make it for you.

[mightymaxIV]

Buggyman you are right. Opinions are a tough thing.

Keith- I'm not calling anybody greedy. I'm specifically comparing track styles and costs as I'm pretty familiar with both ofthese designs. It would be easy enough to build a much less expensive pro-style track and still make really good money. If you want to "budgetize" the "classic" style design. This tends to diminish the value of similar tracks like escargo. Everything has a different "value" to each of us. I don't see the pro-crosser taking $1100-1200 more machining time in addition to the $300-400 upgrade from 1" to 1.5" UHMW is made when compared to the classic design. It uses (2) fasteners per crosser vs. (4) on the classic. No mention no backer plates. You get more pro crossers from a sheet (unless maybe you're making really skinny classics?) so you still end up with extras even after using 4 or 5 more per side. Those extras roll over pretty quickly towards building another track.

I understand that a "bladed" track as you call it has already been made. I was told Adair was also working on a hybrid concept back when I first started posting videos of the Escargo Hybrid experiments we were playing around with. I also understood that that track was ultimately too "labor intensive." I get that- it's a bummer, but if time is worth anything, a bladed version should be quite a bit more expensive. I encourage anyone else to sell/offer that. I might actually feel like I accomplished something by pushing it. I know it's the only one I'd recommend for Alaska, and I've spent a lot of money on disappointment.
I also think that a bladed version needs to have thicker walls on either side of the steel flat bar, the insert needs to be deep and well supported, and sandwiched tight with through-and-through fasteners, not simply threaded screws that bite into the "remaining" wall thickness from an off-set insert. If somebody makes this style track at a fair price, I would absolutely recommend it. No problem. I don't care who makes it, but that style is the only one that I seeing working worth a damn up here.
For some of you guys down there in the marsh and mud, the standard "classic track" is going to work well. And if you want traction, you simply get a bladed version. I'm sure Tim would make it for you.

Why go through all this trouble, if you want more traction in ice or any other condition all you have to do is add ice cleats. For myself I can only think of a couple of conditions that would have required the extra traction. Since I don't run in snow or ice the only place I have ever run out of traction was a hard pack mud surface at Busco Beach. I was trying to pull J.P Swift out of a very bad mud hole. My machine was on very hard packed dry mud. I simply drove around to the other side, got in the grass, got my traction and yanked him out. I am sure a set of ice cleats would have taken care of any traction problems even in this situation, however, 95% of the time I don't need them and don't want them. The set up used by Rock Doc, Foxvally or Bigbuck would be great if you need the extra traction but even those set ups are far to aggressive for my needs 95% of the time. I like the Roc Doc solution. One ice cleat about every fourth grouser. If it works for him I am sure it would work for me without being to aggressive for my needs.

[Buzz]

Riding conditions are different in your location than mine.
Seems like 6-wheelers are popular in your neck of the woods. They are not near as useful up here. It's just the nature of the beast in what we use them for.
I have never been in trouble with an elevated belt track that was too aggressive. It always remains easy to turn with a wide piece of vertical steel for traction. I have been in trouble because a track was "not aggressive enough". So far, I feel the best traction device out there is a piece of vertical steel. It doesn't pack with snow/ice, or ever work against you when turning. A wider piece of vertical steel is always going to give the best chance of making contact and biting vs. a narrow add-on. You're right in thinking that you don't always need them. You frequently also don't need tracks in situation like that either. But the situations that can absolutely stop you require lots of traction. The more contact patch biting the better. If it's directly under the tire, better yet.

I think add-ons like these are great and inexpensive and kick butt if they do the job where you ride. When it comes down to time, it doesn't take so much time that it's not worth it to simply insert some flat bar, drill a few holes and put on some washers/nuts. You gotta drill holes in simple add-on traction devices too. Though screws might be just fine....I prefer to have a mechanical fastenter sandwiching an insert vs. a threaded screw driven into plastic. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that if it works for you and seems to be durable. But, I just don't prefer it that's all. I don't mind spending just a little bit more time to make sure it's bomber so that I don't ever have to repeat the process.
I think some of the members here have done an excellent job using different add-on traction devices to gain enough traction for where they think they'll be riding.

An elevated belt crosser has a narrower contact patch actually touching the ground (a good thing), and therefore is better suited to a full-steel insert anyway. This style of traction device just happens to work better.....I don't think it's that much trouble to make. And, it allows you to get the best traction along with the other benefits of an elevated-belt track. Ultimately, that's what we're after here....an elevated belt track "with" the best traction style for all operations and conditions. The aggressive traction of this style is there when you need it, and doesn't affect turning when you dont.
Short, aggressive u-channel add ons work well enough when you need them (most of the time), but can cause trouble in situations where you don't actually need them. But when you need them, you need them, so it's a compromise. I just prefer vertical steel on al "elevated-belt track" like Escargo uses.

[Buzz]

The thought of coming up to...a log for instance...and nosing up onto it with screwed-on traction enhancers just worries me. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like they would take an awful lot of side-load stress under the weight of the machine nosing up...trying to lever them off. They wouldn't take near as much stress when you're not encountering large obstacles (flat slippery ground or hills).

I have also found that when you're trying to climb up onto slippery things, it helps to have a traction cleats as frequently as possible.......especially if your back end is floating. The "bite" of every grouser starts to come into play if you want to make any kind of progress.

[mightymaxIV]

The thought of coming up to...a log for instance...and nosing up onto it with screwed-on traction enhancers just worries me. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like they would take an awful lot of side-load stress under the weight of the machine nosing up...trying to lever them off. They wouldn't take near as much stress when you're not encountering large obstacles (flat slippery ground or hills).

I have also found that when you're trying to climb up onto slippery things, it helps to have a traction cleats as frequently as possible.......especially if your back end is floating. The "bite" of every grouser starts to come into play if you want to make any kind of progress.

Buzz, you are thinking that the cleat is going to pull you up on the log but you forget there is an entire track pushing you and providing traction behind you.
You can't go fourty feet in my neck of the woods without climbing a fallen tree, I never had an issue climbing them without the cleats.

[Buzz]

true- when the rest of your track can grip -but that's not always the case. And, traction enhancers that come around the front tire still take a lot of stress when popping the nose up. At any rate, the hardest part can be getting the front of the machine to "pop" up when it's slippery like this. It's easy if the remaining track behind you can grab. Sometimes you need back-to-back crossers (up front) to bite to get the front up enough. Even then the traction cleats can slip and you'll lose your progress and have to keep trying. With traction on every crosser...in the right spot....and enough horsing around, you can usually find a way to always pop at least one front side of the machine up. Then, you can usually find a way to climb out. One thing I really like about the mudd-ox in situations like this is that you can leave the low side going forward while you "work" the high side (the side that popped up) forward followed by abrupt burst of reverse...which helps the low side to lurch forward and have a better chance at grabbing. As soon as it starts to grab, you can push both sticks forward. You can really work along a high obstacle or even from floating to "climbing" out if you stick with it long enough. It's the only drive system that will let you do that.

[rockrewls]

Buzz, I understand your position and have seen pics and vids of your machines that being said a full width piece of 10 gauge metal isn't for some people and here's why, it can break and it can hit the tub of the machine or due to the sheer weight of the track you can get tub slap and that can definitely destroy the underside of a tub, add-on traction parts can be positioned outside the tub and therefore provide traction as well as peace of mind that your tub wont get damaged in the event something goes wrong, as well in my personal opinion the type of tracks you promote are heavy and don't swim well at all, which for me is a big down side.

[2014SE]

Not trying to make friends or enemy's but Buzz is right, you need a full width steel grouser on every grouser for MOST conditions.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=c4-feed-u&v=NmAUse8j_m0

I'd be willing to put $$ on the line saying a plastic crosser without steel grousers can do that. As far as steel grousers cutting the tub up, feel free to check mine out any time. Their is no one do all track but for me I want steel to get me through. These Escargo's may are not as buoyant as UHMW but you can't have everything.

[kghills]

I don't know. I do a lot of things with only UHMW grousers. I only see a full blade being any sort of advantage or even desirable in very few conditions. Again I point to sales numbers. If a steel blade was actually desireable in MOST conditions why are there so few sets out there?

My friend Doug has the Pro series tracks with cleats. His Argo swims and has pretty good traction on ice as seen in this video. To my knowledge Doug has never lost a track either.

Again, swimming is really important I feel. In this video when we get by the tree line we are swimming more than half the time. (the first A in AATV)

I need to ask, if swimming was not important, why on earth would you buy an AATV. Aren't there a number of dedicated tracked machines that would be a better fit for use in AK on frozen tundra, rocks and such?
Keith.

[foxvalley]

I would be very afraid to run any kind of steel, or studs under the tub unless there is zero chance of track slap,or anything getting between the track and the tire. I've seen first hand what can happen,like a hot knife thru butter,LOL.

Hey keith,and anybody else interested. Going to get a ride set up out here in central WI later this winter,just finished blazing a new trail,lots of fun for an afternoon. Let you know on the date.

Hey Keith, It's been so long watching that ditch vid with Jason, I almost forgot what a natural driver he is,a real pro. He lets the unit wander around finding traction by itself, unlike most people that want to fight it the whole way. These things are truely (kid friendly)

[Buzz]

I do a lot of things on just tires. In fact there are only a few things that require tracks. Sale #'s over the last couple/three years are representative of the internet and forums advertising to some extent. That's the age we live in.

I've found that lighter tracks actually slap easier. The biggest factor is whether or not the track has been built to the proper length and that the tub-clearance isn't being pushed too tight given the tires installed on the machine. Your HDPE tub is more sacraficial than UHMW. A "pointed" screw, pick, or traction add-on is going to slice like butter like you describe. A wide piece of flat bar is going to have to slap and scrape for quite some time (if you ignore it because your machine is not set up properly) for it to eat through your tub.

A for amphibious. Yes, I know The "floating" aspect is ultimately the most important. The escargo style tracks paddle just fine in their current configuration...which is now much more aggressive and lighter....even in all steel. Moreso in hybrid. Especially if you know how to properly drive them...unlike some of the videos out there of the older versions and intermittent/fast track driving.

Amphibious machines are beneficial especially up here because they "Float".....and will not swamp themselves if all the rules and common sense are followed. Not because they are advertised as being able to "swim". We all know that you "can" move through the water, but no track is going to push you like a motor if you're talking about current or wind....especially in large open stretches of water. A motor is needed for that. Anyone who thinks that any of these "swimming" tracks is going to do the job there is crazy. Now if you want to just move yourself across a pond or swamp or skirt through calm water...all of these tracks do a swell job. If you're in any kind of swamp where grass or weed are present here and there....you're going to fly through it.

Not having steel cleats are a deal breaker for me. Not elevating the belt of the track is also a deal breaker. But that's just me, and just my conditions. I've gone plenty of places with all-uhmw as well. But if it gets slippery you're done even if your machine is empty. Now if you're trying to tow or carry weight, you're double screwed. If you don't need extra traction, you don't. If you do, you do.

Here are a couple. Things that are hard (especially when wet/slimy), frozen, or covered in willow/alder will stop you dead w/o traction cleats. Sometimes you can get by just fine with all UHMW. The green avenger w/camo seats has all-uhmw in this video.

[rockrewls]

My point still stands, an addon cleat outside the tub area is much safer and will provide any needed additional traction, as to the elevated belt design I don't want to have to add track tuners to avoid chain windup, and a elevated belt doesn't come close to swimming like an adair track does, I have personally seen just tires wear through a tub and metal will eat through it almost instantly.
Another thing is the ability to turn under a loaded condition, anything can turn empty but full length metal will not skid under heavy load and if it does its very hard on the drive line. I am referring specifically to argo's here which is what I run.

[2014SE]

My point still stands, an addon cleat outside the tub area is much safer and will provide any needed additional traction, as to the elevated belt design I don't want to have to add track tuners to avoid chain windup, and a elevated belt doesn't come close to swimming like an adair track does, I have personally seen just tires wear through a tub and metal will eat through it almost instantly.
Another thing is the ability to turn under a loaded condition, anything can turn empty but full length metal will not skid under heavy load and if it does its very hard on the drive line. I am referring specifically to argo's here which is what I run.

Feel free at any time to look at the tub on my Argo any time you want. Not a mark ANY where. I am willing to let load my machine with all the weight you want and take you for a run and see just how it turns with steel grousers. The edges of Escargo and channel tracks are curved, giving you a easy to slide track. If your running squar cleats or something like spiked traction aids that won't let it slide to the side is where the problume turning arises. It's easy to say how well or bad something will or won't work but without running them side by side under identical conditions it's not possible to know how they compair. If your happy with what you got good, if you don't like the others don't buy them. It's a ATV for fun, enjoy it.

[Buzz]

if you're worried about your tub, don't run a cleat that's too tall or a track that's too loose....or both.
I've run all-steel escargos for a lot of hours and have had zero issues with any kind of damage whatsoever. A piece of flat bar perpendicular to the direction of track travel under the tub is far less dangerous than a "pointed" add-on. Luckily, if you place a pointed-add on outboard of the tub, it also makes this style very safe.

Steel on edge does bite the ground. That's a good thing. Turning laterally is not a problem, unlike trying to plow 7' of belting on a non-elevated belt style track is soft conditions. On the flip side, plowing the belt isn't always an issue. In some conditions, it does make turning very difficult though, and the entire track doesn't always want to move "with" the tires.....

[jjort]

I am trying to figure out what an elevated belt design is. I am guessing that the adair classic tracks are an elevated belt? I thought they were using a chain system to connect them. I am leaning towards buying the adair classic 17" and mounting cleats for traction.