A question for you track experts

[North Country Tough]

While tracking up my Avenger last week with the Argo rubber track system some things came to mind that Iam wrestling with, following Argos instructions to the letter in regards to tire size/placement and pressure etc which I have always done i just want to know why #1 wouldn't it be better to size all tires as close to the same even if some are running way more pressure than others to obtain the same diameter if the front tire and the rest following are running on the same piece of rubber wouldn't it be traveling the same speed ish,#2 why are we trying to overdrive the middle two sets by following instruction given by Argo by running the largest 4 in the middle,following the sense made by Adair of track tuners it seems that the mid,s are not that important why would we not put 4 of the biggest at the four corners and run the smallest in the center with low pressure for them to slip easier this is not using Track tuners of course I know that the installation instructions were wrote by engineers not a layman like myself but just trying to make sense of it all.Holiday Cheers NCT

[plott hound]

read this bud http://www.6x6world.com/forums/tire-...ng-tracks.html

[North Country Tough]

read this bud http://www.6x6world.com/forums/tire-...ng-tracks.html

Yea Bud great read but I still don't get it seems to me that two tires that are very close in height would travel at pretty close to the same speed whether it be on pavement or rubber certainly the center ones that end up being so large in comparison are forcing the others that's why I was saying running pressures at what ever to get diameters spot on but again Iam not a engineer and obviously cant think like one you know these rubber tracks are driving me Madd I got to find the replacement that makes sense but don't have all the time in the world to sit at this screen living where we are the machine spends as many hours sometimes more on tracks,that said we have had a giant meltdown with rain and it refroze left us with a foot and a half but good going the main hwy is great the sideroads bring your clap skates you still contemplating a run into your hunt camp.Frozen Cheers NCT

[Noel Woods]

There are several schools of thought on tire sizing, I agree with the Adair folks that believe the larger tires go on the outside. I am not really sure why any organization would want the larger tires in the middle. I think that running the rubber tracks really causes greater problems than the other types of track systems and will lead to more maintenance to your machine from wear and tear and breakdown. I have actually known several folks who have sheared axles off their machines when utilizing the rubber tracks.

[JohnF]

Not an expert, just a guesser...

Why not all same diameter varying pressure:
I actually tried this and it was impossible with the tires I have so maybe having a procedure for varying tire diameters is the higher probability solution.

Why larger in center:
The largest tire is on the driven axle and all other axles drive from it getting smaller the further they are. This makes the chain tight always consistent and always toward the drive axle. So, maybe some sort of axle windup or tensioner mitigation thing? Or maybe it is better to drive tires to slip inside the track rather than drag them to slip?
Perhaps to offer a tiny bit less resistance in turning on pavement/hardpack?

[ARGOJIM]

Pure speculation here, hope this is thought correct and worded as thought.

With the smaller tires on outsides the larger tire should feed the track at the bottom as the second tire carries a major portion of the weight and pulls the track with some slippage and rear tire pulls track creating some slack at the top of the track between 1&4.

With larger tires feeding the track to slower rotating center tires a small section of overdriven track can appear in front of the under driven 2nd and 3rd tires, now with the tracks upper section tightening creating excess force on the outer axles perhaps leading to shearing of axles.

So in short my guess is tires factory indexed allow for slack at the top op tracks between 1&4 and due to indexing and raised bearing points, less axle/bearing stress.
Just my guess as I am no engineer or long time track user.

[Buzz]

main reason is to keep chains tensioned correctly and prevent undue stress on fixed-position tensioners. An added benefit is that the larger tires in the center help the machine to pivot a little better and there is additional tub clearance above the center tires vs. the corner tires on many newer machines. Smaller tires on the corners need less clearance, and there is less clearance above the corner tires because of the corner axles being elevated in the frame. With the way argos piggyback their chains from the idler axle, argo's indexing pattern makes the most sense. Some of the tires slightly overdrive the track surface they are on top of, and it does waste horsepower, but the machines are geared to accomplish this easily, and the tensioner's are protected. Ease of turning and tub clearance do come into play also.

I'm curious to hear the rationale for putting larger tires on the corners. Occasionally I do it for convenience to tighten a track up (rather than adjust track length), but my center tires are idlers, so the normal forced early rotation of the center tires in this scenario is eliminated, and the tensioners on those chains do not get loaded improperly. There are times that it is not possible to put larger tires on the corners simply because of tub clearance as well.

[North Country Tough]

I sorta get the tensioner deal but still struggle with the high loads placed on the axles I can and have ran with a tensioner broken and strapped down but a snapped axle in any of the corners is catastrophic to a tracked AATV in the outback and having seen axles break with the rubber tracks system and the fact that Argo now produces a even stouter axle it seems ratio or not the axles have became the weak point with the use of their track system my use of Frontier tires on my Avenger give me added clearance so tire diameter is less crucial Iam very much leaning towards a four track system I want the redundancy of this but do not want to sacrifice its snow ability as this is the only thing that I need tracks for so just going to have to see and hear what the fellas in the deep north are using and the pros and cons before making a decision and a change but a upgrade this coming year to the cast axles will happen as its near time for chains and sprockets anyway.NCT

[philipatmaxfour]

yes N.C.T.[QUOTE=North Country Tough;208508]I sorta get the tensioner deal but still struggle with the high loads placed on the axles I can and have ran with a tensioner broken and strapped down but a snapped axle in any of the corners is catastrophic to a tracked AATV in the outback and having seen axles break with the rubber tracks system and the fact that Argo now produces a even stouter axle it seems ratio or not the axles have became the weak point with the use of their track system my use of Frontier tires on my Avenger give me added clearance so tire diameter is less crucial Iam very much leaning towards a four track system I want the redundancy of this but do not want to sacrifice its snow ability as this is the only thing that I need tracks for so just going to have to see and hear what the fellas in the deep north are using and the pros and cons before making a decision and a change but a upgrade this coming year to the cast axles will happen as its near time for chains and sprockets anyway

I think that You will also need 8 wheels with a different offset because the cast axles are longer?

[North Country Tough]

Ah yes philipatmaxfour that subject came up in the shop today and there was also some scuttlebutt on a reversible rim design to eliminate spacers but unsure of whether these were for the Frontier tires I run or the bigger bead locks there will be a call off to Argo after the holidays to find out my exact needs the feedback I have gotten is that the cast axles have proved to be bullet proof and since this year will be the changeover i need to amass all info to get the correct parts the first time.Thanks NCT

[philipatmaxfour]

Question(s) for you track experts

I hope that yoy get all of the info that you need when you call ODG. I have seen lots of the new aluminum wheels with the bead lock feature and all of them have the different setback that allows them to accommodate our rubber tracks without using wheel spacers if the rims are reversed. not sure how much of a problem that would be if you wanted to use Adair "track tuners" like Plott Hound. I have also seen steel wheels with the setback made to fit the longer cast axles but I don't know if they are regular production or not. Lots of guys are happy with the new aluminum rims but I will wait a long time before I buy them. Big question is are the off set rims available in steel or aluminum for the Frontier tires that you use? If you get the whole scoop ,please let us know.

[Buzz]

longer axle + offset rim flipped out = approx 2.5" spacing
offset rim flipped inward = to having no spacing
to use 2.5" tuners you would simply install the tuners on center axles and flip the rims inward to the non-track mode, and the 2.5" tuner would space it back out to match.
I've been told that a steel version (less expensive) will be available in the offset rim to take advantage of the new longer axles at a lower package price. Not sure if there will be offset rims in 8" diamater size, but I suspect the answer is No.

[North Country Tough]

longer axle + offset rim flipped out = approx 2.5" spacing
offset rim flipped inward = to having no spacing
to use 2.5" tuners you would simply install the tuners on center axles and flip the rims inward to the non-track mode, and the 2.5" tuner would space it back out to match.
I've been told that a steel version (less expensive) will be available in the offset rim to take advantage of the new longer axles at a lower package price. Not sure if there will be offset rims in 8" diamater size, but I suspect the answer is No.

As my next track move is the Quad tracks there is no question that I will be using Frontiers tires so the rim situation may be a issue,that said I don't have the spec for how much longer they are yet and not really concerned unless its a ton longer for a number of years now i have not run Dual wheels pretty much since the HDI axle upgrade as I needed all new stud hardware to make up for the axle flange thickness which brought into play re machining the track extension studs and the list went on so i just stopped using them and since I have not been removing my track spacers in the summer so my wheels have been out further for a while no biggy and have not had any issues leaving them on i did speak with a fella yesterday about the beadlocks he was quite impressed has a bunch of hours on them says good to go and the overall ride is improved.NCT

[Buzz]

I believe the axles are about 1.25" longer. One direction the offset in rims (also approx 1.25") is added to the increased axle length, while in the other direction the offset in rim washes out the increased axle length.
Because the 10" wide tires already have a bonus 1" of clearance on either side of the rim centerline compared to a 12" tire, a couple things come to mind. With equal spacer widths, a 10" tire can run an inner belt that is 1" wider than a 12" tire running the same style, and both have the same amount of clearance.
If you were to simply put a 1/4" spacer on each axle, or stack a couple washers on each lug stud, and you were to use the longer axles and 10" wide frontier tires, then you could run a 4" inner belt (similar to what 12" tires do with 2.5" spacers), and you would have the same amount of clearance.
Hope that makes sense. 1.25" gained from longer axles, 1" gained (towards the machine) because of the narrower 10" tire, and .25" gained from your spacer of choice. In fact, you don't really even NEED the .25" spacer part, but it would be better.

Or you use the longer axles + standard 2.5" spacer and have clearance for up to a 6" inner belt.

[Buzz]

the down side to buying the upgraded sprockets, axles, and outer bearings, is that it becomes very expensive after the fact to retrofit. I would recommend considering the upgrade from the factory, but some # crunching is in order to see if it's worth the extra cost to retrofit into an older machine. The main requirement for reliability is that you no longer have an 2-piece stamped flange axles on a machine.