Argo falling behind

[Sparx]

Sparx, I have a simular problem with the pro series/winterkit dropping into a hole just wide enough for the argo, and with repetition, eventually chew a 2 track on the far side,and the front belly gets hung up.In a narrow hole you are forced into the 2 track,not much to do, either back out or winch out.

That's one thing I found nice with the Rubber tracks, the tracks weren't too aggressive and wouldn't tear up holes and actually would pack down ruts everywhere else as a result. Very little overspray as well with the rubber flat tracks. A lot more spray with the open pattern design and believe the open pattern design was the result of my only broken axle so far as well allowing a log to come through the track window and bind up between a front bearing carriered tire and overloading the non-bearing carrier second tire causing the weaker one to break off. It happened so fast there wasn't much noise, just tire rubbing with a broken 3" log just behind the Argo lying on the hard ground.

This is the hole that I was stuck above on the Rubber tracks that I made it through this season on the Escargo. Even now you can see the consistency changed due to rain and there was a bit more water in the hole which I think favors any track setup to make it through easier and not plug up the track cleats...

[foxvalley]

Sparx, I have a simular problem with the pro series/winterkit dropping into a hole just wide enough for the argo, and with repetition, eventually chew a 2 track on the far side,and the front belly gets hung up.In a narrow hole you are forced into the 2 track,not much to do, either back out or winch out.

[Sparx]

Rubber tracks are great on snow and ice,very comparable to the pro series tracks with both winter kits,however, the lack of open track design on the rubber doesnt allow for aggression/cleaning.The escargot tracked unit isn't stuck is it?

I find the open track designs don't float as good as the full flat design and suffer in the ground clearance area as a result. I was following a Frontier 8x8 on plastic supertracks and was very impressed how well he was doing in the muskeg just because of how well he was floating over it instead of digging trough like I was with the aggressive cleats. But boy are plastic tracks so noisy on hard or frozen ground. I miss my Rubber tracks often and contemplate modifying them to swim and work better, turn easier by adding Plastic grouser paddles. I wasn't too impressed with my Rubber tracks on ice or snow hillclimbing, even after trying to add the factory steel cleat inserts. We really didn't have enough snow this season to compare how well my Escargo's would have done but I wouldn't put them past being the best out there since the metal cleats are hard to beat traction wise. They climb out of frozen water when you break through with ease once the ice is thick enough.

[Sparx]

Here is a pic where I am actually stuck on Escargo's. I barely made it out on the pic above after some very delicate driving. Those Escargo's are amazing at always finding some traction somewhere in situations like that. The issue is more which is unavoidable is getting hung up due to ground clearance issues with hard ground piled up under the tub and soft ground under the tracks such as in these photos on what I call the death trail. This trail was pushed through for the Fort McMurray Wildfire as an extra fire break by huge dozers and left some pretty nasty ruts.





Would I expect the Rampage to go through this? Not really, but what I expect from the rampage is an actual better ride when I hit the hard land I ride a lot in between the bogs and beaver dams, deep creeks.

[SHOTGUN]

Those pics from Sparx is what is normally up here (Boreal and Shield Canada) I would not call that extreme by any means. Everyone has to remember that there are so many variables to what has been discussed like budget, specific terrain, technology available, Total weight vs HP vs Ground PSI, Machine width and length plus others. Unlimited budget and extreme engineering would produce an amazing product, but who can justify that? The Polaris AATV is allowing for some of that by using some of both of those two key ingredients, by having the ability to steal tech from it's huge R&D department and components created from other leading edge main line products they make. Also Polaris can to some extent subsidize the product from other lines to get to it the point of mass production and becoming profitable. Look at the slingshot they make, the price is crazy on those for what you get and I have read that they are sold out as fast as Polaris can make them. One other thing to consider like all things in life once you get to an extreme circumstance, to overcome it, the trade offs usually become extreme in nature also.

[allwheeldrive]

Sparx that is NUTS!

[crossbowme]

Man, that is impressive!

[foxvalley]

Rubber tracks are great on snow and ice,very comparable to the pro series tracks with both winter kits,however, the lack of open track design on the rubber doesnt allow for aggression/cleaning.The escargot tracked unit isn't stuck is it?

[plott hound]

sparx,maybe you should buy a helicopter.lol

[Sparx]

Well I must say this thread took a much better turn when I was honestly expecting the worst. I agree with most of it too, haha.
See the hole above I pictured is easy for an Argo cause there is enough water to allow it to float. It's when you take the water away from the consistency of the mud that it becomes a problem for everything, note how I didn't just say Argo.
I've gotten my Escargo tracks stuck, I even bent a grouser and almost ripped a complete lug off my tire in one process. I made it through holes that got my Rubber tracks stuck and got stuck where I know my Rubber tracks would have made it through. I think each track has such different traits it's hard to get one that does it all. Take a look at these pics and tell me what you guys think:
Stuck on Argo rubber tracks


Escargo in true muskeg

[john swenson]

only machine i've seen go thru most every swampy, muddy , snowy ,bog conditions is the '' screw '' machines like the old fordson. but even they have there drawbacks i'm sure in certain terrain. they are sure cool though. j.b.

[crossbowme]

All good points allwheeldrive. In this part of Maine, it is a mixture of your rocks and things and peat bogs that go for miles. The peat bogs are bottomless and the woods so dense that a man can't not walk thru them. I have driven ATV and SXS all over this area but was always stopped by swamps. In the winter we'll have 8' of snow on the ground and those machines are helpless. In fact, this winter I had to break trail for our grooming snowmobiles because the snow was to deep. The bottom line is the Argo is the only nonmilitary or power line machine that can go thru this crap. I was going to keep my Commander 1000XT but am convince the Argo has it beat hands down. Sure it will only go 20 mph on dry trails but it is seldom you'll see a trail go a quarter of a mile without a turn. Speed here is immaterial.

[allwheeldrive]

All I see here is some unseen magical brand loyalty for Argo growing old in technology other then EFI which I don't care much for but understand the needs environmentally. It just seems like usual same as the Adair track loyalty on this forum to tear anything apart that could threaten the competition to an Argo. Let's face it, everything about an argo is old and archaic with very little technology anywhere else then maybe their space program. But just like Argo's space program not passing off the technology into an Argo I'm sure Polaris could do the same just as CHEAP as Argo does with their amphibious machines. We obviously don't need night lighting and nuclear harden systems for our use, that's just common sense. Like you guys are trying to find any downfall to knock it down.
I've had almost any off-road type machine there is and to me this seems like the next step. In my environment you need to stay on top cause no depth of snorkel or size of tire is going to keep you going in the skeg and water crossings I need to get across. Bigger tires just get you into bigger trouble, same with snorkels and there is a limitation on overall width despite the many cutlines in the area. The blowdowns can be so bad you need to ride through the trees to go around them as they would take you all day to cut through. The trees up here can be pretty big and heavy to deal with as well.
Here was my 2007 Custom Built Ranger with 8" lift and Tatou 4S UTV tracks buried in a beaver dam. It had over 24" of ground clearance, ran on 6 30" ITP XXL Mudlites when on tires with 6 Gorilla Axles. I broke 3 of the axles getting out of this hole and ripped the front A-arm off from the frame getting it out of this hole after driving through the other direction. My buddies 4 Runner on 35" Super Swampers was over the hood in the same hole just before I got stuck on the berm trying to get out and popped a balljoint out from a front a-arm and broke an anti-rotation rod in the rear on one track...

As one for jumping on the band wagon of innovation and improvements, I will point out the already in production Tracked Tinger. I brought up in it’s respective thread how I really wasn’t as impressed with its performance as one would think a fully track driven machine should be. There is something to be said about the effectiveness of wrapping an aggressive open tread style track onto low pressure flotation tires. The Tinger in all of its videos seems to bog down and cut into the mud with its tracks like a knife. Let’s see the Polaris Rampage being driven by someone not working for the company or trying to sell it. 200 HP and hard heavy tracks may fail just as badly. An AATV with proper tracks like Escargos and big balloon tires keeping the belly from applying too much weight in the mud seems to be the ultimate solution to never getting stuck in the muck. I mean, I have never seen an Escargo or Adair tracked machine stuck, ever (not counting their tracks coming off)

But really, we need to back up and reexamine the big picture. Because I personally get sucked into this mental loop time and time again.
Off road is not just made up of big mud holes or swamps.
I spend FAR too much time fantasizing and weighing the pros and cons of building the most unstoppable mud machine imaginable. But… where is that mud? Most of the time one has to go looking for it.
In VT that mud doesn’t exist anywhere, not even during mud season. I spend 99.9% of my offroading bashing over sharp boulders and tree roots. There is a bottom to any mud pit I have ever encountered. I can’t image how quickly I’d smash idealer wheels and sprockets on a tracked machine in the terrain I drive. I’m not saying such muddy places aren’t the funniest to play in, or that in other parts of the nation they don’t exist, but a large majority of people would not be served as well with tracks as they may image.

It should also be pointed out this is a good example of how a SxS can be pushed so much harder and eventually break itself so much worse than an old archaic Argo. I high doubt if you got an Argo stuck in that hole there would be anyway to break any part of it. It doesn’t mean it be any better at freeing itself, but it wouldn’t break even if really pushed hard.
Sometimes there is such a thing as too much power. I like to make the point that Caterpillar Tractors almost always have JUST enough HP to spin their tracks under nonideal circumstances. The manufacturer of CATs know that any more power than what the tracks are capable of actually transferring to the ground will only lead to an increase in possible breakage. Another good example was when on Dirt-Every -Day they mounted 54” tires on a stock F350 and beat the snot out of it. They Never broke an axle or any running gear. Yet the truck got to 90% of the places they pushed it. It had so little power moving those big tires it just couldn’t induce the wheel speed or torque to break anything. An Argo is sort of like that, it’s just powerful enough to keep the tires spinning and not stuck. If more traction than it has is needed likely more HP will just break stuff.

I have nothing against wanting or owning a Polaris Rampage, I want one, it be awesome. But I struggle to image how it be better or even as good as a 8x8 with open tracks in the worst muck.

[foxvalley]

Sparx,not quite sure if I'm following you, it's not so much brand loyalty as it is that an argo works,with the right track system,basically unstoppable. I have no time for brand loyalty if that brand doesn't do what I need it to do,get me in and get me out without getting my feet dirty.I have no time to be getting stuck, and don't consider getting "stuck" fun.
That hole your stuck in.....I drop into holes like that every time I head back into my swamp,in and out no problem. Less is better,so is simple is better,the less moving parts, the less to go wrong.
Here is one of my vids in a ditch,the video is edited.....not to cut out the parts where I got stuck, sorry,never happened,I just cut out all the boring parts......

https://youtu.be/imCOfgm3LRU

[LW1911]

Pretty sure my Grand Daughter needs one of these