Full hydraulic machine

[Noel Woods]

]I believe if someone made a "modern" amphib that had a low and high range gear box good enough to work where we 6x6ers go in the rough yet was reasonably fast enough to get where we want to go without the driver and it's occupants becoming starry-eyed from boredom, would have the best chance at securing the market. Everyone gets google eyes seeing us go where others can't go but none of them want to have more grey hair by the time the trip to and from the "mud spot from hell" is over. I still think a modern "high" tub that will clear big tires with tracks, built from the single sprocket design that provides power to the track from the front or rear, along with a "good" ( read; fast as most modern golf carts) multiple speed gear box would win in the sales department hands down. This design simplifies our complex multi chain drive units. Honestly, most people are scared to death of the repair bill when they see how much maintainance our toys require. Simply put, make them more reliable, easier to fix and maintain, and somewhat faster. It's not that easy or everyone would do it, yea yea yea I know. BS. With all of the modern drivetrain options available, there is no reason for still using so many sprockets and lengths of chain. Get rid of the majority of the items that wear out quickly. Use a small driveshaft or u joint type item that has more reliability and is less likely to wear out after it's covered in dirt, grease, and oil. "

















Got a simple drivetrain machine coming down the pike, cvt tranny, rear wheel drive powering tracks. More to come.

[kghills]

when you actually out there using a hydraulic machine over long distances and mixed terrain, you really begin to appreciate to convenience and maneuverability of a hydrostatic drive. Trying to turn a differential transmission (even a "steering" version) can really be a pain if you have long distances to go that are off-camber. If a machine is built right, they are truly a joy to operate if you need it to do a little bit of everything. The current class of machine available addresses the old complaints.

I believe if someone made a "modern" amphib that had a low and high range gear box good enough to work where we 6x6ers go in the rough yet was reasonably fast enough to get where we want to go without the driver and it's occupants becoming starry-eyed from boredom, would have the best chance at securing the market. Everyone gets google eyes seeing us go where others can't go but none of them want to have more grey hair by the time the trip to and from the "mud spot from hell" is over. I still think a modern "high" tub that will clear big tires with tracks, built from the single sprocket design that provides power to the track from the front or rear, along with a "good" ( read; fast as most modern golf carts) multiple speed gear box would win in the sales department hands down. This design simplifies our complex multi chain drive units. Honestly, most people are scared to death of the repair bill when they see how much maintainance our toys require. Simply put, make them more reliable, easier to fix and maintain, and somewhat faster. It's not that easy or everyone would do it, yea yea yea I know. BS. With all of the modern drivetrain options available, there is no reason for still using so many sprockets and lengths of chain. Get rid of the majority of the items that wear out quickly. Use a small driveshaft or u joint type item that has more reliability and is less likely to wear out after it's covered in dirt, grease, and oil.

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now. Whew.

I will agree with both your opinions on this but add the one word that I think keeps anything that is or could be produced from taking hold in the market currently. "Expense" to do it right just seems to cost at least twice as much as non hydraulic options. That's what I'm seeing at least. My Coot2 is cool but I am told the hydraulic pump and motors are cheap and that's why it's noisy and needs to run at 3800RPM all the time.

Keith.

[kghills]

" Amphibious machines aren't designed to go fast anyway,"
MINE IS, maybe thats why everybody buys side X sides.
maybe thats why people won't buy them , THEIR TO DAMN SLOW.
MANUFATURES NEED TO STEP IT UP AND MAYBE THEY COULD KEEP UP

I can see where it would be very advantageous to run at very high speeds if you were doing any desert riding like these guys were a week ago.

But they only had purpose built vehicles with like 21" of travel not a retrofitted AATV with 6". My point is that I think the market for an AATV, especially a skid steer machine to travel at extremely speeds may not exist. I think there is probably a medium speed in there like say 20-30mph that would be considered acceptable and maybe a commercial machine with full hydraulics a speed a the lower end, but much less than 20 is probably too slow. WFO, you do realize that once your suspension is fully compressed the next thing to compress is your spine. At a high rate of speed this force is amplified as the suspension bottoms out and can be extremely painful, and it happens faster the faster you are driving. Be careful!

I can't help but chuckle when I see Nick, who has 2 racing photo's in every post he makes, talk about how we like to go slow all the time. I'm not sure that's why you loose the pack when your leading. I would think it has more to do with the fact that every driver seems to attempt every obstacle on the trail, and if 1 person gets stuck, everyone else wants a go at it. Then it turns into a winch-fest. Of course most of us like to challenge ourselves with crazy mud holes and very technical maneuvers, and yes many of us like to bs and have a beverage. We also like to go fast! All the purpose built racers are proof of that. I have machines for different uses, but always thought a big 4-stroke springer was the best all around machine. They are great at speed, and can crawl better than almost anything. I was planning on saving my pennies to spring a machine through whipper, but since he seems to be out of the springer production business, I don't know if I will ever manage to obtain a springer. I firmly believe that a sprung factory Max could be manufactured and sold for around the price of a well equipped razor. The machine would dominate the competition in off-road capabilities and at least be more comparable in the speed trail aspect. If this was achieved, we would see our hobby grow exponentially.

A suspension to fit an AATV that's light, narrow, simple, made with common parts and inexpensive?

Next you'll want it to be full Hydraulic and fast I suppose.

Keith.

[rcn11thacr]

I believe if someone made a "modern" amphib that had a low and high range gear box good enough to work where we 6x6ers go in the rough yet was reasonably fast enough to get where we want to go without the driver and it's occupants becoming starry-eyed from boredom, would have the best chance at securing the market. Everyone gets google eyes seeing us go where others can't go but none of them want to have more grey hair by the time the trip to and from the "mud spot from hell" is over. I still think a modern "high" tub that will clear big tires with tracks, built from the single sprocket design that provides power to the track from the front or rear, along with a "good" ( read; fast as most modern golf carts) multiple speed gear box would win in the sales department hands down. This design simplifies our complex multi chain drive units. Honestly, most people are scared to death of the repair bill when they see how much maintainance our toys require. Simply put, make them more reliable, easier to fix and maintain, and somewhat faster. It's not that easy or everyone would do it, yea yea yea I know. BS. With all of the modern drivetrain options available, there is no reason for still using so many sprockets and lengths of chain. Get rid of the majority of the items that wear out quickly. Use a small driveshaft or u joint type item that has more reliability and is less likely to wear out after it's covered in dirt, grease, and oil.

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now. Whew.

[Buzz]

when you actually out there using a hydraulic machine over long distances and mixed terrain, you really begin to appreciate to convenience and maneuverability of a hydrostatic drive. Trying to turn a differential transmission (even a "steering" version) can really be a pain if you have long distances to go that are off-camber. If a machine is built right, they are truly a joy to operate if you need it to do a little bit of everything. The current class of machine available addresses the old complaints.

[Nubs]

I see it as pretty much two completely different Machine User's. The People i know that live and work in the bush or off the track a bit want something that's going to do a hard day's work over and over, Built like a skid steer hydro. A belt driven machine will never do that for very long without always replacing parts . I have re geared 2 bobcat's over the yrs so they would have a road speed of 20+ mph @ 1600R's to run between farms faster. They lost 1/2 there torque also but I think that AATV's just don't have the weight and or traction to stall or over heat any kind of hydro set up.

There room and a need for both is My opinion..

[amphibious drew]

I can't help but chuckle when I see Nick, who has 2 racing photo's in every post he makes, talk about how we like to go slow all the time. I'm not sure that's why you loose the pack when your leading. I would think it has more to do with the fact that every driver seems to attempt every obstacle on the trail, and if 1 person gets stuck, everyone else wants a go at it. Then it turns into a winch-fest. Of course most of us like to challenge ourselves with crazy mud holes and very technical maneuvers, and yes many of us like to bs and have a beverage. We also like to go fast! All the purpose built racers are proof of that. I have machines for different uses, but always thought a big 4-stroke springer was the best all around machine. They are great at speed, and can crawl better than almost anything. I was planning on saving my pennies to spring a machine through whipper, but since he seems to be out of the springer production business, I don't know if I will ever manage to obtain a springer. I firmly believe that a sprung factory Max could be manufactured and sold for around the price of a well equipped razor. The machine would dominate the competition in off-road capabilities and at least be more comparable in the speed trail aspect. If this was achieved, we would see our hobby grow exponentially.

[Nick O.]

" Amphibious machines aren't designed to go fast anyway,"
MINE IS, maybe thats why everybody buys side X sides.
maybe thats why people won't buy them , THEIR TO DAMN SLOW.
MANUFATURES NEED TO STEP IT UP AND MAYBE THEY COULD KEEP UP

I don't know. Every trail ride I go on and I become the leader, I lose most the group without fail. Even at Ashtabula where there isn't anything difficult, I'll turn around and see a few people out of a few dozen. Granted I get bored and get us lost but this crowd doesn't really go fast about anything. They like cruising around with a beer and conversing. The Max with the 29hp I ran was just idling through the trails following a group.

I would compare us more to the 4x4 crowd. They like slow and articulate trails, and most the fun is being there with friends and family. RZR's and such are most seen with quads flying through the trail as fast as possible. Every type of machine has its own niche. I see amphibs most comparable to slow tanks that will dominate the trail rather than an Ariel Atom for the dirt.

[wfo]

" Amphibious machines aren't designed to go fast anyway,"
MINE IS, maybe thats why everybody buys side X sides.
maybe thats why people won't buy them , THEIR TO DAMN SLOW.
MANUFATURES NEED TO STEP IT UP AND MAYBE THEY COULD KEEP UP

[Noel Woods]

Buzz:
Well said and true to point. Hydraulics don't have to be driven by an engine in warp drive mode, just high enough to keep the pumps going for the terrain encountered.
A hydraulic machine isn't going to be a racer, most of us don't need a racer (would sure like to have one though). The two Mudd Ox machines I've driven kept up or exceeded the speed of the Max or Argos I've driven. That probably means the most successful machine may have a combination of drive systems.
Whose going to build one?

[Buzz]

A re-designed and properly engineered machine like the mudd-ox works well in all situations- recreational and also hard-working (commercial/backcountry towing/hauling) conditions. It also doesn't need to be operating at full-throttle or even close to it to do most anything you need it to do. In fact, most of my use (even navigating tundra and climbing hills) seemed to be 1800-2200 rpm. BTW a kubota uses very little fuel at that rpm and not much more at higher rpms. Let the hydraulics do the work. Amphibious machines aren't designed to go fast anyway, but with some of the pumps/motors currently available you can get that too. Engine choice is very important to making the whole package perform like you think it should.

[kghills]

Keep in mind I said I'm throwing out ideas, I didn't say I was planning to make one of these with a hydro setup. Only other ideas for different forms of propulsion.

?Keith: what is the model of the machine that mudox sells over seas that your talking about? If it's so heavy duty, why isn't it offered here? Keep in mind when u respond that I'm asking an honest opinion, not trying to fling mud or say anything bad about mudox.

I don't know a whole lot about the full hydraulic Mudd-Ox other than Matt calls it the "Canadian Machine" and he will not let me take pictures of it, but its not a secret he says. It has some big engine and two speed or maybe even a three speed hydraulic pump and some fancy wheel motors. I think it is a track only machine and some of them have 7000 hrs on them with no maintenance issues. Special frames and I think they are heavier than an XL Mudd-Ox but still float. You could always ask about it in the Mudd-Ox manufacturers area of the forum if you want more reliable information.

I'll give you an honest opinion on any hydraulic machine all kidding aside. I really do not think they are for the recreational market. All these threads about them just talk about theory and how they could use a lawn mower or skid steer pumps and motors blah blah blah. First off, you can't just grab any cheap hydro system and figure it will work in an ATV. Just doesn't work that way. To have both power and speed you need big horsepower and multiple speeds and expensive motors. That's just the way it works. Even if and when you would get that part figured out the reality of driving it just sort of kills it. Think about it for just a second. Think about every hydro thing you have ever used. You start it up seems good right? Well you don't go anywhere at idle. The pump and motors are designed to run at 3600-3800rpm. Before you move you throttle up. Not like a conventional vehicle where you only apply throttle when you need it, you throttle up to the motor and pumps operating RPM and then proceed to move at your desired wheel/track speed to navigate over obstacles or down the trail. All while pumps motors and cooling fans are screaming away along with the engine fan and exhaust. You are basically running at WOT all the time. Trust me, your wife and family will not be impressed. My Coot2 is fully hydraulic. It is very capable and everybody that looks at it thinks it is the ultimate off road thing. I start it up and let it idle, they all go oh, that's cool. Then I throttle it up and its all over. Most tell me to shut it off. If you can get them to take a ride, 5-10 minutes is all they can really stand. Maybe that's the reason they made about 8000 Coots (CVT clutch with a transmission) and only 66 Coot2s (full hydraulic machines) That's my take. I don't mean to put anybody off, and discussing things is all fine and dandy, but I like to look at things and ask "then why aren't there more of them" or why didn't anybody buy it when it was used in this thing. If you can't provide an answer to the question it usually means it didn't work as good as people thought it would or as in the case of a full hydraulic machine, in my opinion, is suited for a commercial application but not a recreational.


I even installed a variable throttle (originally it had two engine speeds, idle or 3600rpm) using a linear actuator from a Mudd-Ox so I can vary the engine speed but to use Hi gear or run any obsticles in Lo gear you really need to run at full throttle just like any skid steer, utility tractor or zero turn mower I have ever operated.

Keith.

[rcn11thacr]

Keep in mind I said I'm throwing out ideas, I didn't say I was planning to make one of these with a hydro setup. Only other ideas for different forms of propulsion.

?Keith: what is the model of the machine that mudox sells over seas that your talking about? If it's so heavy duty, why isn't it offered here? Keep in mind when u respond that I'm asking an honest opinion, not trying to fling mud or say anything bad about mudox.

[kghills]

Why would you want to spend thousand's of dollars to build something that might only go 12 mph.
Why don't you just buy a front end loader and take it off-roading.
You could take it to Busco and rid the trails of debris while your trail riding,so everyone else can do 25 to40mph.
You'll be like a lonely maytag repair man riding all by yourself.

Whipper

And as you scream down the trail at 12mph with the engine turning 3800rpm with the pump howling and the motors whining and the cooler fan buzzing away while burning up about 12 gallons of fuel an hour, you can use that private time to wonder how long it will take you to walk back to camp.

Keith.

The Coot2 has 2 6 gallon tanks.

[whipper-ag]