Springers, how, why and are they worth it?

[kghills]

I decided to start a thread where a person could go to get some general springer information on the site. There are lots of great build threads, pictures, videos and discussions here and there on the site but I thought it would be nice to have a place that sort of brought a lot of the info together and gave people a chance to discuss them in general. So here it goes.

Here is a great thread with some springer history:
http://www.6x6world.com/forums/6x6-a...ger-racer.html
It looks like the first springers were for racing. Tube chassis with outer skins or body panels. Here are a few photos from the sites extensive galleries.


The next versions of springers uses an existing body. Some are for racing and some are for trail riding. Some do both. Member whipper-ag has a company called Apache Gear that manufactures kits for the Max II, Max IV and Attex. Here are some build threads:
http://www.6x6world.com/forums/attex...-springer.html
http://www.6x6world.com/forums/max-a...-springer.html
http://www.6x6world.com/forums/attex...-springer.html
http://www.6x6world.com/forums/max-a...-springer.html
http://www.6x6world.com/forums/max-a...-springer.html
Here are the known Whipper springer kits:
WFO Max 4 -AZ
Whipper Spider Attex- AZ
Whipper Scorpion Attex- AZ
Whipper Godzilla Max 4- AZ
Bridget Max 2 SS-AZ
George Apache Attex-NY
Lewis Orange Crush Attex - NC
Aussie Max 2- Australia
Whipper special project- AZ
Jerseybigfoot Copperhead Max 2- NJ

Just because there is not a "kit" for your AATV does not mean you can't have a springer. Member bugeyed 99 designed and built his own springer for his Hustler 950:
http://www.6x6world.com/forums/hustl...er-anyone.html

Also be sure to check out an Argo springer. Lots of info on this thread from our serious trail riders in Canada.
http://www.6x6world.com/forums/argo-...-springer.html

Please feel free to chime in and let me know of things that might be added or changed in this first post and I will modify it. If I missed your build thread please post it and I will add it. If you have a springer tell everyone why you love or hate it and why and what you would change if anything. And for sure post pictures and videos.

Yes they go fast, yes they ride smooth, yes most with bodies can swim, yes they look cool, yes they go in the mud. But do they do any of these things as well or better than a well built 6x6 that relies on its tires and its seat for suspension?

Inquiring minds would like to know or you would not be reading this thread, would you? Keith.

[mudbug3]

Great post topic Keith if some one is thinking about building an amphib springer !

[JoeMeg]

I'm going to keep an eye on this thread. I know I want to assemble my Hustler 880 with the Berkley Jet Pump functional. However,I feel that for this fact,when it comes to serious mud holes,she's gonna be somewhat of a "Trail Queen",lol. So,I have been having serious conversations with myself about how to just build a springer. Then,from experience (lazyness,lol), I won't get into too thick of goo,just to avoid having to clean it all off. I vision the Hustler being used primarily in the Pymatuning valley crusing dirt roads and (hopefully) accessing some of the many small bodies of water in the area.

Joe.

[Mike]

Don't forget our Canadian members and the Argo springers they have been building: http://www.6x6world.com/forums/argo-...-springer.html

[kghills]

Joe, here is some good trail riding springer video of Marc and George. I think it is very similar to the riding you envision.

Thanks for the Argo springer link Mike. I will add it in to the first post for sure.

Keith.

[mudbug3]

Installing a springer kit on an amphib is a great concept if you don't mind being limited in where you choose to take your amphib. For rocky terrain and bumpy roads with light watery mud holes, a springer is a great idea. Hatfeilds and Mckoy's ,atv park is a fantastic park to go to if you own an amphib with a springer kit .In the river bottom lands and the different swamps that my friends and I have to ride in, an amphib with only a suspension seat is much more practical than a springer kit. The people who would make a great candidate for a springer installation on their amphib ,are those with lots of fabrication skills, have the necessary cash on hand to see this project through by paying some one else who has the needed skills ( not cheap to do I have heard ) or some one who has more than one machine like several forum members that have already bought springer kits.


This is a great place to take an amphib with a springer kit.

[kghills]

Hey Dave. While I tend to agree with you on this I also know we both are open track advocates. In the places we ride you could make the argument that having tires and not tracks limits you just as in some conditions having the tracks on can limit you. It would have nothing to do with it being a springer or not. The biggest thing I am seeing from watching George and Marcs videos is tire size and choice. I actually really enjoyed their video and wonder if a bigger tire on a springer might change the game for them in an extreme mud condition like it does for the lifted big tired RZRs you see at the Mud Nationals. That is if those are the conditions you choose to ride in.

Keith.

[jerseybigfoot]

The Copperhead currently has 22" Dirt devils which are slightly shorter than 22RH3's. 25 RH3 will just fit a standard Max2 with some body mods. My next opportunity we will see how the 25's fit. Because of the springer kit width it doesn't look like it but the ground clearance is almost doubled.

[kghills]

You right Marc, the height does not look as if it's that much more than a stock Max II. Does the width cause you any problems on the trails you have been riding so far? Not the overall width, but it seems to me the width of your springer would match up pretty good to that of a Jeep. I could see where if a guy were to run rutted up Jeep trails you might have a problem finding a line to run without high centering. I also think the 25x12x9 RH3s would be the way to go if they fit. Or maybe 24"at Argo tires. They might also swim really well. That might be super cool.

Keith.

[kghills]

The Copperhead currently has 22" Dirt devils which are slightly shorter than 22RH3's. 25 RH3 will just fit a standard Max2 with some body mods. My next opportunity we will see how the 25's fit. Because of the springer kit width it doesn't look like it but the ground clearance is almost doubled.

I grabbed these pictures from the Max Springer thread. http://www.6x6world.com/forums/max-a...-springer.html

These pictures show the 25" RH3 tires on a Max II springer kit. The second picture does a good job of showing the Max II compared to the larger Max IV. To me the 25" tire on the Max II looks very well proportioned. For the environment the pictures were taken I would think the RH3 tire would prove very durable. And here is a quote from the masked desperado that pilots the above Max II that addresses my question regarding springer track width and Jeep ruts I also found in the thread. "When we come up to a rutted trail, we do just what you guys would do with a stock machine if you don't want to get stuck. You put your tires on the high spots & hope you don't slide into the rut if it's wet". Are any of the springers besides the Canadian Argo springers running a true amphibious tire? Are there any good videos showing a springer doing some just off idle skid steering and maneuvering around obstacles. I would think that would be an interesting aspect to see.

Keith.

[kghills]

Originally most 6x6s used Balloon tires. These tires were vulcanized to a small center hub and acted as sort of a suspension giving a soft bouncy ride. With a solid frame mounted axle the tire and axle to some extent work as the suspension for the vehicle. Depending on tire construction and air pressure, when you hit an object, the tire will give way a certain amount and try to absorb the energy. If the object is large enough and/or the speed traveled is high enough you can overcome the ability of the tire to fully absorb the impact and the energy is transferred through the rim to the axle which will deflect and also lever itself against the frame a bit depending on its length. Now depending on how hard the impact is and at what speed it might occur, depends on weather the axle has the ability to withstand the impact and throw the vehicle in the air or bend, break and possibly bend the frame and rim. Here is an example of even the strongest axles currently available to the 6x6 community showing the worst case scenario.

Add to this torsional load due to the fact that the axle is driving the vehicle and the fact that the axle is also supporting the weight of the vehicle and it is easy to see why even high strength alloy axles start to be required with the demise of a readily available compliant tire like the old balloon tires originally used. I think it is easy to see why the ride for the 6x6 becomes so rough and the axles can fail on the older 6x6s when agricultural, implement and mud tires are used not to mention the torsional load from the larger lugs and torquier 4 stroke engines.

Now enter the springer. Which uses an independent suspension or IS for each wheel. Now you have essentially three drive components for each wheel. A drive flange back at the frame, axle shaft and wheel hub in the hub carrier. The hub carrier usually has an upper and lower a-frame attached to it with some sort of shock and spring arrangement that is connected to the lower a-frame and frame support. This IS arrangement sort of takes the load bearing and need to absorb and impact out of the equation for most of the axle components and only require it to take the demands of torsional load. Energy not absorbed by the tire is now transferred to the spring and shock. Sounds great right. Smooth ride no matter what tire right. Well there are some other considerations to take into account especially in wet adverse conditions. And here is were I ask the question of durability of the springer. This question has nothing to do with axle strength. If an inch and a quarter stock Honda Civic axle can take 500HP at the wheel in the cars I dyno at my shop I would think an axle in a 6x6 springer should pretty well handle the 8-40HP a 6x6 can transfer to its wheel.

Its all the other components. Strength of the A-frames, shock bushings and mounts, plus the cradle or exo-frame that supports everything. How about life of things like CV joints, boots and spherical rod ends and bearings. What happens when the suspension bottoms out? In things like buggies running in the desert or on sand dunes these components deal with one set of challenges. In woods, swamps, mud holes I would think that maybe the game would change. Seaweed, roots, small twigs muck all balled up around the axles. Every part of the suspension submerged in sandy grimy clay enriched muck. Running the machine back and forth across deep ruts just to try to make it in and out of a hole like Mike in this video which is sort of typical of many of the videos posted of group rides on this site.

Call me crazy to ask, but fitted with an aggressive mud tire would a springer be more capable than a Max IV like Mike the administrators or a RZR?

How long would the bearings, rod ends, bushings and CVs actually last in adverse conditions. I know the number of springers is few, but there sure is a lot of interest and fitted with a big mud tire? Do they have more potential than for just zipping around the desert fast with a softer ride. Is the ride that much better than an old balloon tire? Who knows?

Looking forward to discussion and education. Keith.

[amphibious drew]

That bent axle wasn't one of whippers newer custom made ones. I don't see your point here but to try and cause controversy and mabe to vent your aggression about someone having something better than you have. I'm sure Whipper and Bridget would be glad to sell you a springer kit for your Attex. Then it would be the best thing since sliced bread to you I am sure. If the balloon tires worked so well, they would probably be in production still today. But the fact is, they would send you a new tire if and when you popped yours. I would imagine they only did so to keep consumers content as they did pop and puncture, and are not easily patched.

[kghills]

Drew, is that all you honestly got out of my previous post? You felt it was some sort of refrence against Whippers axles? The post I got the picture from was from Whipper himself and I used it as an example as it is widley know that his axles are of superior quality but everything has its limitations hence the reason I posted it as an example. If you follow the thread the picture most recently was posted in Whipper states the rock that bent the axle could be hit with one of his springer kits without damaging the suspension. If that is true, that is the feedback I am interested in, and maybe even video. I work on vehicles all day that are better than anything I own. But that is off topic and thank you for your response. I always figured the demise of balloon tires was a numbers game. With so few 6x6s being sold, why make a tire? Similar to what you see happen to Runamuks, Rawhides and ASX tires. I tried to read through as many of the builds as I could and watched the videos I could find. The only thing that comes close to my intended use is the Argo springer info and it seems like it has dropped off the 6x6world radar. I am sure there has to be a number of people that look at the springer concept and wonder about its ability in non desert, non racing, non sand dunes conditions. I do not know everything so I thought this thread might enlighten me and others as a more diverse view on springer amphibs. Discussions like this will help me determine if I build or purchase a kit for my Attex yes, that is why I bought the latest one and why the threads name asks if it is worth it. If I decide it is you can count on me for honest feedback. For the record I slice my own bread.

Keith.

[brushcutter]

This is slightly off topic but Keith raised a question about the springer durability. A while back I watched another documentary about the Baja 1000. I've long been a fan of desert racing and while watching some of the available video and the absolute torture the drivers and their machines endure I've often wondered what that would be like in a 6x6. In a word: BRUTAL! Outcome: no finish! Amphibs are just not suited to that kind of prolonged abuse, for the most part they are far too slow and would hammer the driver to pulp in the first 50 miles if the machine even made it that far. I can't say whether there has ever been a single one even attempt it, I know I've never seen one. I do believe that if there ever was a 6X6 that stood even the slightest chance of getting in that would be one of Whipper's Springer machines. I can't remember what they call it, but they allow folks to run whatever they bring after all competition vehicles have hit the trail.

[Don]