Argo vs. Max vs. ?

[jwiereng]

I kinda heard through the grapevine that the Argo center axle on a 6x6 is positioned lower then the front and rear axle. can anybody verify that? If true, Why? I know that I can sit on the cement with my Spider or my Max,and from a dead stop,spin 360 deg.instantly. If you can do that with your Argo in high gear from a dead stop, on cement, please post a video of it. I have driven an Argo and in my opinion it does not handle as good as a T-20 driven car, especially at high speeds.Which is my next question. Every video of an Argo I see, it's doing 10mph. They must go faster than that. with one exception, Roger S, I've seen him drive fast. Is it because they're hard to handle?
Anyway, this thread is about whats better, Max or Argo. And you now have my opinion. So let's hear from all you Argo guys why that center axle is lower.And now we're all waiting for that concrete 360. When the snow melts of course.





Whipper

I have an argo, never driven any T-20 machines, can they turn each side of wheels in opposite directions at the same time? That would be sweet

[SiliconTi]

Just FYI. There is a KID here in town. They are quite large and very heavy (something like over 1 ton). Also, the loading desk is very high off the ground. It would make a good tractor (what it was designed for), but probably not good for recreation.

[jerbear]

Argo vs Max ....Easy!!!

Just my opinion, but between the Argo and Max.... I have to say Attex!!! Old skool two-stroke, loud as hell, fast enuf to scare me!! I wouldn't consider anything else, but that's just my opinion!!!

[bostatv]

AATV comparison

Gentlemen,

There is no doubt that all of the AATV's are superior to one another but you are forgetting the King of Kings ( MUDD OX )

Have a great day ALL
Ken

[lewis]

There was an interesting paper on "Improving skid-steering on a 6x6 all-terrain vehicle"
presented at the 12th IFToMM World Congress.

http://130.15.85.212/proceedings/WorldCongress07/articles/sessions/papers/A100.pdf

"Overloading" the center wheels made a considerable difference in turning resistance.

This is particularly interesting wrt springers as it should be easy to change their handling
characteristics, somewhat, just by changing the preload on the center wheels.

Anyway, just thought others might find it an interesting read.

The Avenger is at least the 06 models are built with the 2 center axles lower than the front and rear. When on a flat surface my rear tires never touch. Helps turning with the more aggressive tires. Seems to work pretty well.

[tpg]

There was an interesting paper on "Improving skid-steering on a 6x6 all-terrain vehicle"
presented at the 12th IFToMM World Congress.

http://130.15.85.212/proceedings/WorldCongress07/articles/sessions/papers/A100.pdf

"Overloading" the center wheels made a considerable difference in turning resistance.

This is particularly interesting wrt springers as it should be easy to change their handling
characteristics, somewhat, just by changing the preload on the center wheels.

Anyway, just thought others might find it an interesting read.

I kinda heard through the grapevine that the Argo center axle on a 6x6 is positioned lower then the front and rear axle. can anybody verify that? If true, Why? I know that I can sit on the cement with my Spider or my Max,and from a dead stop,spin 360 deg.instantly. If you can do that with your Argo in high gear from a dead stop, on cement, please post a video of it. I have driven an Argo and in my opinion it does not handle as good as a T-20 driven car, especially at high speeds.Which is my next question. Every video of an Argo I see, it's doing 10mph. They must go faster than that. with one exception, Roger S, I've seen him drive fast. Is it because they're hard to handle?
Anyway, this thread is about whats better, Max or Argo. And you now have my opinion. So let's hear from all you Argo guys why that center axle is lower.And now we're all waiting for that concrete 360. When the snow melts of course.

Whipper

[SiliconTi]

My two cents.

I was in the same boat this year and here is how I decided.

Argo: better for work. Has low and high range transmission, 8x8 available, floats a bit nose-down, better (stronger) winch mount.

MAX: floats level, better for recreational use, rear engine is quieter and (in a IV) uses space well, easier to see over the nose, T-20 has one issue - turning uses power unlike the Argo where it will transfer the power to the other side (though the full-time 6wd is better at times).

Hop that helps. :-)

[mudslinger]

Go to www.muddox.net for info on the Mudd-Ox.

[Roadtorque]

Just curious, Roadtorque. Did you send the same e-mail to ODG to inquire about the changes in their Argo Product line?

Contrary to what a lot of people might think, Max has made a lot of improvements over the years. The body style may not have changed much, but you'd have to know where they were in the 70's & what they are like now to know that they have done a lot of things to make their machines very reliable. I don't hesitate to take my stock Max out in the desert or down the river or in the lakes, because I feel confident about it's reliability to get me back.

I've made changes to my machines, like the springers, not because the Max or Attex were inferior, but because it's something I always wanted to do. We like to drive fast & for us we wanted springers.

Recreatives response is totally accurate about tooling costs involved in some changes that people might like to see. It's not cheap. I developed my springers for my own personal comfort & enjoyment, but it is not a modification that an AATV needs. Quality & reliability is what's really important. Personally, I think Recreatives machines are pretty awesome just the way they are.

Whatever kind of car you have for whatever reason or driving habits, they are ALL pretty cool just they way they are.

Whipper

No I didnt send it to ODG. I wanted to but the layout of the "contact us" part of their site made it seem like they would just have a dealer contact me. If someone doesnt beat me too it I will probably do it later on. I would be interested in what they have to say. As a side note is there a website for the Mud-ox aatvs? I have read they are pretty good but cant find a site for them through google. Appearance wise they look a lot like an argo to me (which a a good thing) I was just wanting to compare specs

[Don]

And the 55 mph idea? Mfg's can't do that, they have to keep center of gravity low and speed low, and wear helmets in the demo tape.

Seems like it could be done, but quite possibly the manufacturers want to play to a different crowd than the quad makers: an "older" crowd maybe. In the late 70s, the stock Superchief approached road speed, although they advertised the top speed at 40mph. I don't know the legal aspects of selling a faster machine, but the Japanese quad makers do it- I had a Banshee for a short time (moment of weakness, sorry everyone) and it scared the bajeepers out of me. It doesn't seem like that kind of speed on four wheels is any safer than on six.

I have to agree that the differences in modern AATVs are subtle, but significant. The Mudd-Ox is a good example of what can be done with new ideas, but I wouldn't look for Matt to be doing major changes to the big machine, either. I'm sure none of the existing manufacturers sell enough machines in a year to make wholesale tooling changes financially feasible. I would like to see some other engine options (a liquid-cooled two-stroke is too much to ask for, but maybe a hotter four-stroke would be possible).

I've grown a new respect for Argos after riding with the Carolina Boys, but can honestly say that I haven't lost my "little" Attex in too many holes yet that the big machines could drive over.

[whipper-ag]

This post got me thinking, why dont they do a little R&D to improve their product. So I contacted MAX atv through email. Here is what I wrote

"Seems as though your product has never changed. Why not/when will an update the product line. Improved looks, ground clearance, addition of suspension, increase speed and so forth. The ATV market is always improving and competing with each other yet the AATV market is stuck in a rut with research and development, or so it seems. Why is this from your company's point of view"

Just curious, Roadtorque. Did you send the same e-mail to ODG to inquire about the changes in their Argo Product line?

Contrary to what a lot of people might think, Max has made a lot of improvements over the years. The body style may not have changed much, but you'd have to know where they were in the 70's & what they are like now to know that they have done a lot of things to make their machines very reliable. I don't hesitate to take my stock Max out in the desert or down the river or in the lakes, because I feel confident about it's reliability to get me back.

I've made changes to my machines, like the springers, not because the Max or Attex were inferior, but because it's something I always wanted to do. We like to drive fast & for us we wanted springers.

Recreatives response is totally accurate about tooling costs involved in some changes that people might like to see. It's not cheap. I developed my springers for my own personal comfort & enjoyment, but it is not a modification that an AATV needs. Quality & reliability is what's really important. Personally, I think Recreatives machines are pretty awesome just the way they are.

Whatever kind of car you have for whatever reason or driving habits, they are ALL pretty cool just they way they are.

Whipper

[Roger S]

You would not believe the cost to change something.. make a body mold.. or even the rubber boot on the MuddOx control sticks. Big bucks. And the 55 mph idea? Mfg's can't do that, they have to keep center of gravity low and speed low, and wear helmets in the demo tape.

As for what vehicle? That gets impossible to answer, when the different types of riding and work are looked at. The tiny Attex and similar sizes must be a blast to pilot, but they would disappear in a Haspin Acres crack in the earth that my 8 wheeler would easily walk across. Meanwhile the max II's are making a slalom course out of every tree in the woods.

[6X6]

......But the EXACT MINUTE that RI throws a 50-60 horsepower, 55mph capable Max on the market, you can be sure that the Argo guys are going to be hitting the AutoCAD pretty hard.

There just needs to be a catalyst. What will that take? Who knows.

~M

Now there IS

I hate to say this being so new to AAtvs but the mudd ox beats them all ,
Allen

YUP, THE OX.

the niche nature of the "AATV" market precludes the volumes, cash flow, purchasing power, and economic justification to making big changes to the product design. Investing even say $100,000 in tooling changes to offer some new feature will take years to even break-even. I understand our dealer in Glendale, Arizona is manufacturing a suspension kit which can be added to MAX ATVs. He has sold just one so far for $6000 (just for the suspension kit), just to give you an idea of what it takes to put something out in small volume.

So we focus on evolutionary improvements to the product design which has made them much more reliable than in the old days, and we still have a decent-sized market for our vehicles.

We do have some more significant changes in the pipeline, but their release will have to coincide with an improvement in business conditions.

Thanks for following our industry.

Galen
Recreatives Industries Inc."

I hate to say it but I do agree with this, their not selling them like 4-wheelers. That said, I DO think some of the stated changes could be made for very little cost, or simply sourcing new items (Such as tires) from vendors.

OH, I vote for ATTEX, fast, fun to drive, still goes darn-near anywhere, My Wolf is still supprising me and that's with a little 2-stroke engine, not a more Ideal for trails big 4-stroke (Yea, I said 4-stroke would be ideal) But the 2-Strokes are WAY more fun so it's more than worth the torque penalty. (I don't like the Diff steering idea (Good idea untill you throw in off-road), and Sorry, but I'm not the biggest fan of the design of the Max, not bad, just not my 1st choice. My Wallet will not allow me to vote for a Mud-Ox yet. (Not that it's more than a comperable Argo, but it's $$$$ thats keeping the Ox away, that it.)

[mudbug3]

I called Recreatives today to order a new rear axle , because I bent mine backing into a mud hole that had a chunk of concrete under the water. I have a 2004 Max IV and it has set screws to hold the sprockets in place. Dan at Recreatives told me that all of the new Max 6x6,s now have snap rings to hold the sprockets in place , and also larger diameter axle bearing too. So I guess they are changing a few things , even if it takes years to do it.

[Roadtorque]

A follow up email

Jeff can certainly add to my rant, and probably for good reason. I can't be sure that a lot of decision makers at RI monitor the Site. I certainly don't know the inner-workings of the company, so all I can say is from observation, and from speaking to a few of the folks there.

They (RI) seem very, very complacent with their current products, and not a whole lot of changes have been made in a long time. The Max II and IV have certainly seen their share of much needed upgrades, but a drastic change in either driveline or the body itself has yet to be seen. I guess one could certainly argue that both models work extremely well. Granted, engine choices have certainly improved over the years, and with the introduction of EFI in the Avenger, and liquid cooled models of both the Max IV and Argo models (not sure which you can get liquid in... just the Avenger?), it certainly shows that someone is interested in improving something. There just seems to be a lot of "inside-the-box" thinking that I, personally, think could be put to a test. Without a lot of competition in the market (There are really only two competitors), there isn't much of a catalyst for change. There's really no "oneupsmanship" in the amphibious ATV industry. I would certainly like to see a drastic change in either of the manufacturers that is grand enough to stand the other on its ear. The thing is, extensive R&D is expensive, and when there's little DEMAND for the change, that expense likely does not seem fruitful.

Personally, (no big surprise coming from me...) I would love to see a machine that's capable of 55mph off the showroom floor. It's not difficult. It's not extremely expensive. Sure, a springer would be amazing, and most of the R&D for a couple machines has been performed. Would RI buy the idea from Whipper? Probably not. Why? The attitude of the manufacturers isn't in performance, unfortunately. But the EXACT MINUTE that RI throws a 50-60 horsepower, 55mph capable Max on the market, you can be sure that the Argo guys are going to be hitting the AutoCAD pretty hard.

There just needs to be a catalyst. What will that take? Who knows.

~M

This post got me thinking, why dont they do a little R&D to improve their product. So I contacted MAX atv through email. Here is what I wrote

"Seems as though your product has never changed. Why not/when will an update the product line. Improved looks, ground clearance, addition of suspension, increase speed and so forth. The ATV market is always improving and competing with each other yet the AATV market is stuck in a rut with research and development, or so it seems. Why is this from your company's point of view"

This was their reply

"Thank you for your comments.

Most six-wheel enthusiasts don't understand that the niche nature of the "AATV" market precludes the volumes, cash flow, purchasing power, and economic justification to making big changes to the product design. Investing even say $100,000 in tooling changes to offer some new feature will take years to even break-even. I understand our dealer in Glendale, Arizona is manufacturing a suspension kit which can be added to MAX ATVs. He has sold just one so far for $6000 (just for the suspension kit), just to give you an idea of what it takes to put something out in small volume.

So we focus on evolutionary improvements to the product design which has made them much more reliable than in the old days, and we still have a decent-sized market for our vehicles.

We do have some more significant changes in the pipeline, but their release will have to coincide with an improvement in business conditions.

Thanks for following our industry.

Galen
Recreatives Industries Inc."