New Max II redesign?

[Nick O.]

When I started working on my Max project, I asked my dad about getting rid of chains and using the Gates carbon belts (ones that were about $300 a piece I think). He told me in the beginning of Mudd-Ox, they brought out an engineer and tested them on the 8x8. They instantly snapped. A Max is is lighter, but those belts are expensive and don't match the strength of chain.

[brunpup]

The cog style pulleys and belts have been around for a long time, and I know our 1960 and 61 year model Cub Cadet mowers use them for the deck.. Who knows if Recreatives tried using the cogged pulleys back then? As stated above, belts just can't really hold up to the stress that a chain can.. If anything, perhaps changing the design of the tensioners would be the best place to start on a Max II.. I don't know how often it is required to retension the chains on a Max IV that uses the idler sprocket design like my early Max II does, and I haven't been able to run mine yet to find out.. But I know that in the ag world, chains that go past the idler sprockets don't need adjusted very often.. To me, it seems like a less stressful, less wearing way to run the chains.

[Rusty-Gunn]

Belts don't work. Easy enough. Besides, just to change out a belt would require axle removal, and we all know how hard that can be!
Now, how about a factory modified tub for 24" tires?

[rcn11thacr]

When I started working on my Max project, I asked my dad about getting rid of chains and using the Gates carbon belts (ones that were about $300 a piece I think). He told me in the beginning of Mudd-Ox, they brought out an engineer and tested them on the 8x8. They instantly snapped. A Max is is lighter, but those belts are expensive and don't match the strength of chain.

I'd like to know that there was a Granny Smiths apples to Granny Smith apples comparison with the proper sized belts that compare equally with chain. I can see the standard belts used on the carbon drive system not working (since they are for a bycicle) but to say "belts will not handle the stress" in these machines is just incorrect and not true. If a belt can handle the power a 10,000+ hp nhra dragster then one can be made to handle this. It may be that it's cost prohibitive (and I'd settle for that answer) but it can be done. The gates 14mmGT2 belt clearly shows in the charting that it will handle the stresses of our machines. Now they are over 500 each for the required length, but the company says it will work. These belts are also designed to handle the on off shock loads our machines produce. I'd just hope that muddox decided it was just to pricy to do and that Is why they didn't do it.

[Rusty-Gunn]

I doubt those dragster engines are constantly jerking ie skid steering all day. Turning valves I'd think. Or are they belt drive? (I don't know.)
Won't we complain about the prices of belts, too? Won't this scare off new owners?

[amphibious drew]

I don't know enough to say if it would or wouldn't work. What I do know is it sounds plausible, and these machines are pretty easy to take apart. That being said, you could always try it on your machine. Switch your sprockets to those cog things and order up some belts if you think the idea is that good. I know someone that spent a fortune on some crazy chain. It may have even been synthetic stuff, but he needed special sprockets too. I haven't heard any complaints about it from him, and he rides it hard! I'm sure if you spend enough money you can make anything bullet proof.

[ARGOJIM]

I was thinking like Nick had stated not feesable or designed for the shock load, while a dragster shocks them with stupid horse power the power is on then off and belt replaced. The shock and deshock in one direction may work well but both directions shock instantaneously should cause quick failure, all Bikes and the such have a gradual deceleration or free wheeling effect.

Atleast I think that makes sense.

[rcn11thacr]

I don't know enough to say if it would or wouldn't work. What I do know is it sounds plausible, and these machines are pretty easy to take apart. That being said, you could always try it on your machine. Switch your sprockets to those cog things and order up some belts if you think the idea is that good. I know someone that spent a fortune on some crazy chain. It may have even been synthetic stuff, but he needed special sprockets too. I haven't heard any complaints about it from him, and he rides it hard! I'm sure if you spend enough money you can make anything bullet proof.

Drew,
I agree that is possible and I say that since it has NOT been proved that it will not work with modern technology. I have been gathering parts and have every intention of finding if this will work. I haven't said much about actual plans because I've had too many family priorities of late with multiple family elders in the hospital, etc. Once that settles down then I'll post. Until then I'll continue to "talk" and gather info so I'm better informed on the subject. I know we have one guy that has an electric aatv that has belt drive using gates belts, so the idea is sound. I also know he currently only uses it on the t-20/drive pulley. I see no reason to believe it will not work. I know the new belts allow a pulley to be run much closer to a bearing than normally considered doable. This could allow pulleys bolted directly to the "end" of the axle. Yes that brings up other problems but it does leave the door open for a possible "retro" kit. I could be wrong...but that's part of tinkering, learning on the way.

[wedge]

X2. I run a Blower motor and have broken a belt or two when the Huffer belches. Weak Link
All in all I am All for thinking outside the box but please excuse me but I think your trying to reinvent the wheel ? It is what it is ! Drive chains are the norm on these machines. Only other system tryed and true id Hyd system And there you have a Whole nother set of issues !!!

[amphibious drew]

Hydros usually only run to one set of wheels as well. Running them to all the wheels is crazy expensive and needs rediculious hp. So what you end up with is chains anyway.

[wedge]

Thats Very True !!!
Just alot easyer to put a master link in out in the woods than puut the axles to rewind a belt. Just My 2c
As said it IS what it IS !
I am working on a Better Roller type chain adjuster thow.

[rcn11thacr]

X2. I run a Blower motor and have broken a belt or two when the Huffer belches. Weak Link
All in all I am All for thinking outside the box but please excuse me but I think your trying to reinvent the wheel ? It is what it is ! Drive chains are the norm on these machines. Only other system tryed and true id Hyd system And there you have a Whole nother set of issues !!!

You may be right. However since I am not aware of the strain put on a belt during a "belch" I can't say for certain that a belch is the same type of strain our machines endure. Your assessment could be spot on. If it is then it has everything to do with how I end up designing the home built aatv I'm wanting to build. It will either run belts or it will be sprocket and track driven. Hense the reason for why I want to know. If belts work then I'll use that design since it will allow tires to bring me home if track breaks. If it doesn't then I end up with more work building track and a suspension. I'm not curious for the heck of it. But I'm also fully aware that Rome wasn't built by the guy that listened to everyone that said it can't be done. If it's proven then so be it, if it's not then I want to know if it can be done.

[Mudd-Ox Inc.]

I'd like to know that there was a Granny Smiths apples to Granny Smith apples comparison with the proper sized belts that compare equally with chain. I can see the standard belts used on the carbon drive system not working (since they are for a bycicle) but to say "belts will not handle the stress" in these machines is just incorrect and not true. If a belt can handle the power a 10,000+ hp nhra dragster then one can be made to handle this. It may be that it's cost prohibitive (and I'd settle for that answer) but it can be done. The gates 14mmGT2 belt clearly shows in the charting that it will handle the stresses of our machines. Now they are over 500 each for the required length, but the company says it will work. These belts are also designed to handle the on off shock loads our machines produce. I'd just hope that muddox decided it was just to pricy to do and that Is why they didn't do it.

During the development of the Mudd-Ox, I spent a lot of time with the Gates engineers. They were here at the shop multiple times working with the carbon chain belt along with some other belts they were testing. A lot of time and money was spent on Mudd-Ox and Gates' part to find a belt solution. In the end, there was not a belt solution that was cost effective, strong enough for a given size to fit into normal chain wells, and would give good service life. Replacement in the field was also an issue. I have quite a bit of knowledge on this subject as we spent a lot of time and built a machine for a test platform to test the belts. There are many reasons why they failed, such as the slightest twist or tension would cause the carbon to sheer. Somewhere in my prototype files I have some photos of the test machine and all of the Gates guys standing next to it. If I can find the photos I will post it up. Mudd-Ox and Gates spent a large sum of money to try and make the belts work, I wouldn't want to see an individual go through the same process to find out what we now know. Belt drive would be a fantastic replacement for chains, but it isn't effective at the moment.

Matt

[Rusty-Gunn]

Thus ends the belt solution.

Again, how about remolding the body for larger tires? Softer seats?

[Maxamillion]

I haven't been on in a couple days and wow I guess I stirred up a hornets nest..............All I meant was bring the max into the 21st century, argos have digital readouts etc maybe its time is all.