Tracks, Boggies, suspension...heaven forbid?

[trevorakm1]

Hey Riotwarrior, I'm a fan of thinking outside of the box and not picking on you or anyone here. So I appologize if I may have offended you. I am and have always been an armor fan, fascinated with tracks. When I worked construction I could watch the bulldozers and excavators all day. Before my kids were born my house was sort of decorated with tank models I built, much to my wife's dismay. The tracks are one of the biggest draws for me with these aatvs,I have two sets, Argo supertracks and a set of Adair belted. I consider them my deep snow and everyday tracks. My experience is limited to my local snow conditions, so I can only speak for me. Two years ago we had a blizzard here and I super tracked up for the first time. I found no issues with the argo climbing right up and on top of the 3' burms plowed up on the side of the road and staying on top of the snow. I actually fell getting out of the argo twice forgetting that it was sitting on top of the snow as opposed to pushing it. As I stepped off the track to the ground my lead foot would sink into the snow and cause me to loose my balance. I guess this comment is more directed to oldtucker and the lead angle of the track allowing the machine to get on top of the snow. I think the combination of light weight and tire / track diameter at the front of the machine allows for the climbing on top of the snow. That Tucker I would think is heavy considering the foot print of the front and rear track sections possibly causing some difficulty of getting on top of the snow. I haven't tried the Adairs in the same snow depth conditions but think the open space of the track design would limit the floating capability as it is all about surface area.
Now the original issue of suspension, it's the only flaw I can find with these aatvs. we are limited to tire bounce unless a suspension kit is installed at a penalty of width, which may or may not be a factor for some but won't work for me where I ride. Of the two suspension systems I've seen video of, I think whippers is superior to the one someone in Canada designed for Argos, speaking from a 6x6 point of view and not the 8x8. Whipper's system seems to give better travel per axle. On that note the Max with the springer kit and the adairs seems the ideal combo to marry the two ideas of track and suspension. It also seems to give enough play in the suspension while not compromising the track capability that Noel was hinting at. A track itself has a certain diameter to it, which will ultimately limit the amount of travel any obstacle can push on the track without lifting the entire side of the vehicle. I know I'm master of the obvious but I love tracks. I am certainly up for a solution that gives track capability, suspension and affordability for all. I'm also a very big fan of the K.I.S.S. principle, "keep it simple stupid". Beat the Germans and the Japanese in WW2, also has been a virtue of the venerable AK47. The current set up allows us to run tracks and at an instant pull the pins and drive off the tracks and run tires when tracks aren't needed. A system designed by Walter Christie in the early days of tanks and adopted by the Soviets for their early BT series of tanks.
After all this long winded rant if anyone is still listening, I'm leaning on a suspension system for the bench seat itself in my argo much like Keith Hill incorporated into his max4. It's an upgrade I would like to do in the future that seems pretty easy to do.
Riotwarrior keep us posted on the evolution of your idea you may reinvent the wheel/ track and that would be cool.

[Old Tucker]

Uhm...isn't my idea is so outside the box enough for you??? WTF are U saying....Hmmm??? I'm kinda outside the box kinda guy hence all my weirdness and ideas like building a custom BOLT on track setup?????

For peat sakes riot warrior YES YES your idea is just what this forum needs I love the idea now lets get some of the others to hop out of the box.

[Old Tucker]

My Tuckers footprint is almost the same as the argo 8x8 with 18 inch tracks. But three times the weight But it also has two feet of ground clearance.

[kghills]

Good thread. I will throw in a couple of things that you outside the box people need to remember. Almost all the 6x6 and 8x8 AATVs that the forum is about rely on the tires to give them their ability to float. Take away the tires, add the weight of a track system and you remove the first A. Doesn't mean it cant be done, Just means you have to keep it in mind.

If you retrofit almost any already made AATV the system will be to the outside of the body, making it wider, or underneath making it higher. One of the great things about our amphibs is their ability to go in adverse wet conditions while the occupants stay relatively clean and dry. This means you sort of sit in a tub with the wheels outside of you or underneath you like a Bushswamper. Wider is usually an issue for a great number of people who need to get it on a trailer or have trails that are narrower than a Jeep. Height becomes an issue for stability or getting under tree limbs. Now you can ignore either of these if you wish but you need to realize that you dramatically limit your potential customer base. You may end up with something really cool but it is sort of a "so what" because no one else really wants one.

I'm not a big believer in thinking out of the box really. I find most of the time people take this exercise they quickly loose sight of the core problem/product/issue that needs to be addressed and a lot of time is wasted. I believe in looking outside the box. You look outside the box for ideas you can incorporate(steal) for your project. If you look around at what's been done by others you can usually quickly come up with a list of what's good and bad for your application then look outside the box for a solution you can easily adapt to make yours better. But I'm basically lazy.

Dedicated track machines are cool. Wheeled AATVs are cool. The marriage of the two, although intriguing, seems a world full of compromise. That's my take.

Keep the ideas coming, Keith.

[liflod]

Can someone post a picture of the old style MaxII with tracks that had the framework to support them?

[hydromike]

Can someone post a picture of the old style MaxII with tracks that had the framework to support them?

yup...

[riotwarrior]

yup...

Now this is CLOSER to what I'm thinking...hmmm..Thanks for that

[Old Tucker]

Thats a lot better angle on the front and back of the track. As for trying to make them universal for all condition i don't think thats the point because we already have tracks that are very good in mud and for climbing over logs and rough ground. What we are missing is a good track system that can turn your argo or max into small snow cat. We all ready have the machines that all all just about the same in size in configuration. We can run them on wheels or put a track over the wheel that works good in mud. Now we just need something that will turn this into a family small snow machine. Yes they are slow but if you want speed then you would go the sled, but your stuck with not been able to carry a load.
I know in the snow cat forum we talked about it also and they said the same thing and that is there is not a small unit out there that can be used as a family snow cat.There was talk about trying to build one. but that is as far as it got. We all ready have the unit now all we need is a good set of tracks for it .

[thorn]

Thats a lot better angle on the front and back of the track. As for trying to make them universal for all condition i don't think thats the point because we already have tracks that are very good in mud and for climbing over logs and rough ground. What we are missing is a good track system that can turn your argo or max into small snow cat. We all ready have the machines that all all just about the same in size in configuration. We can run them on wheels or put a track over the wheel that works good in mud. Now we just need something that will turn this into a family small snow machine. Yes they are slow but if you want speed then you would go the sled, but your stuck with not been able to carry a load.
I know in the snow cat forum we talked about it also and they said the same thing and that is there is not a small unit out there that can be used as a family snow cat.There was talk about trying to build one. but that is as far as it got. We all ready have the unit now all we need is a good set of tracks for it .

With the videos you made of where you took your Conquest with Chanel tracks last winter I would say you are probably as close to a snowcat an argo can get. We are starting to get some snow up high here and I am chomping at the bit to get out and try mine. I know that we are always looking for more and more performance. Maybe you want to try a winter kit? My buddy runs a Piston Bully Scout and I am trying to get my Conquest to be able to follow him anywhere, but I don't think that is a reality. I have been pretty happy with my Conquest snow capabilities with the exception of power, and climbing ability.

[Buzz]

Wide escargo track with a wide winter kit. Increased width, paddle bite = increased performance in keeping your machine up and moving in very deep snow.

[Old Tucker]

Wide escargot track with a wide winter kit. Increased width, paddle bite = increased performance in keeping your machine up and moving in very deep snow.

I wish I had a mid engine unit to play with. I think the weight is more evenly distributed. Where the argo all the weight is on the front making it nose heavy. Thats how they steer it by rotating it on the front four wheels. and the back swings from side to side. If you take the front tires off the argo it falls flat on its nose. Yes increasing the width of track and bigger paddles will give you more flotation and traction.. But still you are trying to push the nose through the snow. I think a good snow track for the argo should be at least one foot longer on the front and curved up more so it will pull its self up more. to make up for the heave front end. It would also work better on all the other models. Thats my take on it.
As for the escargo, Adair. and channel track they are all excellent tracks. and serve their purpose. but are limited by design.
I hope I am not the only one that looks at it this way

[Buzz]

I know my ox's were definitely nose heavy if someone was actually IN them driving I did have non-XL machines though. They were heavier and the noses (even with tracks) would sink in a fair bit more than argos I've owned. Which, makes me think a little...
You know, I'm curious- how much do you think a tank-shaped track (in the front) is going to help keep the machine float or stay up on the snow. I've always thought that a longer, sloped shape in the front would help if we were talking about skis, for instance, that just get pushed. Like a snowmachine, this shape would be necessary. But, since the front of our tracks actually rotate, it seems like they are able to stay on top (or get back on top) of the snow (even if you dive nose-down into a ditch for example)... as long as you have adequate track "width." Even a track with a sloped front is only really supporting the weight of the machine with the portion of the track that is flat on the ground. You start pushing snow (losing forward momentum and digging a hole) when you attempt maneuvers such as steep climbing in deep snow that require more floatation than your track has.
I do think a sloped-track would help transition more smoothly onto and over hard obstacles though.
But for deep snow and especially climbing, you've got to have some serious width if you want better performance climbing in deep snow. It's more that just the shape of the front-of-the-track. Or you have to take multiple runs at it. That's our achilles heel because we don't have the HP to spin 400-500 total inches of track with significant speed.
All of the open-grouser style tracks (adair, escargo, chanel etc) are going to perform well in the snow as long as they have enough width. A lot of people think they need a solid track like an argo rubber track for the biggest footprint. A lot of us up here are not fans (to say the least) with the rubber track for a number of reasons. I think that a open-grouser is going to help any new track design.

[rcn11thacr]

The way I see it (working outside of the box) is you have two options;
1.) Is to build this fancy style suspension tracked system that’s already been built for the max. The system has already been used and discarded due to poor performance for multiple reasone as mentioned above, and it also has the other drawbacks such as unslung weight which slowed down the (then) underpowered max.
2.) Or, you bring the best of the two ideas together, therefore keeping the flotation, using simple store bought tracks that work, and you spend your time, money, and effort building a body to “meet” the system that already works by doing this
;

Going this route allows you to put the body where it will meet the tracks, thereby providing a pointed front end to facilitate the front end angle up so it already starts the climb over the object, then the tracks take over. You can mate the factory hdpe upper body to meet the homebuilt lower body your building with mounting tabs or whatever is required to mate the two together, therefore saving time on the build. Once again this gives you the choice of todays tracks that are on the market, keeps the flotation by using the existing wheels, and you can ride with out tracks if you dont have them yet, and its faily simple to build. Example: using the frame of a max iv; build the lower tub from aluminum or stainless steel to match the frame width of the max (its a bolt in system, ie.. drop the complete frame in just as if you used a max tub) then just add the slanted front bow to the body tub design your building. Best way i can come up with of giving you the advantage your wanting with the least amount of work to get you there.

Ps... This would be the prime time to add extra clearance to get those larger tires you have always wanted. As an added bonus...no more dealing with body sag. For those of you that dont want an aluminum body due to climbing over rocks, just bolt on a teflon sheet or some sort of hdpe along the slope and follow it all the way underneath to the back.

[john swenson]

hey, clever idea. just shows how many creative options there are. lot's of design ideas,some work good ..some not. if a guy had a nice shop with lots of the right tools and the money, how fun it would be to just keep experimenting. just for better ability to get thru snow or mud without always riding on the tracks, how would it work with a track maybe 6'' wide running outside the wheels on rims that are maybe 20'' diameter. front rim/cog would drive the track. so basically the tracks wouldn't function untill tires sank some. sort of like the jz wheels. would add width of course, but still be good for most places. johnboy va.

[juggernaut]

I wonder how atv tracks would work on a fully hydraulic machine such as a Hydrotraxx as it is really not a true skid/steer ?