Tracks, Boggies, suspension...heaven forbid?

[rcn11thacr]

hey, clever idea. just shows how many creative options there are. lot's of design ideas,some work good ..some not. if a guy had a nice shop with lots of the right tools and the money, how fun it would be to just keep experimenting. just for better ability to get thru snow or mud without always riding on the tracks, how would it work with a track maybe 6'' wide running outside the wheels on rims that are maybe 20'' diameter. front rim/cog would drive the track. so basically the tracks wouldn't function untill tires sank some. sort of like the jz wheels. would add width of course, but still be good for most places. johnboy va.

My first thought? A smaller width track would allow a tree or rock to "fall" In between the wheels (just like a non tracked aatv), this would take away from the suspension or cushioning effect of tracks. For me that's a big deal. A) I have several back and neck issues complements of Uncle Sam, so I rely on the tracks because they do ride much better; B) the terrain I live in has so many downed trees to climb over that there r places I just couldn't go if I didn't have the tracks to help me climb over obstacles. Yes I understand u said a 6 inch track design, but I feel that small a track would be insignificant compared to a normal width track and the benefits that it gives. Would it help like u mentioned? Got me. Go try it out and let us know how it turns out

[john swenson]

rcn 11, did you understand i meant the regular tires and wheels would still be in place, the 6'' tracks would would run a smaller circle on rims next to the outside of the tires. almost like having dual wheels, but instead of 3 more tires it would be a track. i'm like alot of guy's who see it in my head, but don't know if it will work till i make it. i have sure built plenty of things i thought would work, but didn't. so it's nice to have friends point out stuff. then i go huh, now i see why it won't function. my idea was more for a track that would only go into play when the machine sinks in mud or snow. but i see what your saying about rocks or limbs jamming in the system. johnboy va.

[rcn11thacr]

rcn 11, did you understand i meant the regular tires and wheels would still be in place, the 6'' tracks would would run a smaller circle on rims next to the outside of the tires. almost like having dual wheels, but instead of 3 more tires it would be a track. i'm like alot of guy's who see it in my head, but don't know if it will work till i make it. i have sure built plenty of things i thought would work, but didn't. so it's nice to have friends point out stuff. then i go huh, now i see why it won't function. my idea was more for a track that would only go into play when the machine sinks in mud or snow. but i see what your saying about rocks or limbs jamming in the system. johnboy va.

I did. I just wasn't confident in your idea of this "system" of wheel and track..."in my terrain". It may be the cats meow in snow or mud and that's why I suggested u give it a try. But for here in my terrain i think it would be a liability. It also would lose the cushioning effect tracks give when they are "over the wheel tracks". I totally get having other viewpoints, although I'll admit that I wish sometimes that they had offered their opinions before I'd done things . 20/20 Vision in hindsight is, well...I think u get the idea. I've gone to great lengths to do futile things in the past when I could have done less effort and had much more success. Live and learn, such is life.

[john swenson]

it's so much fun thinking outside the box. plus i love the idea of coming up with some kind of track system that's affordable and easily installed. my idea would mainly be for use here and there when snow falls or your going mudding. will i fabricate it and test it ? maybe if i get the extra cash and do some more research and thinking. also any more comments of things i'm missing as to the drawbacks of the design or why it would'nt work. know doubt you can't beat a good set of adairs !! these would'nt take their place, just add alittle extra help. johnboy va.

[rcn11thacr]

I agree. When things settle down at my new place i have every intention to build one of the lower tubs that i mentioned in my first post. I really like the idea and unless someone points out an obvious error that i have yet to see (which is why i mentioned it here) then i plan to do it. It goes without saying that others are free to give their viewpoints regarding the post i made earlier with the Russian BMP pictured in it. I like the idea. I like the idea even more with a rear "drop down tailgate" built into the design. If the max IV had been built with a tailgate in the rear, it would be so much easier to work on. Yes i know it would weaken the sides of the max by not being fully connected...but that can be overcome. Add a good weatherstrip for a seal to keep out water, a solid piano type hinge and some good clamps to hold the tailgate from the inside.

[Old Tucker]

I bet some folks in buffalo right now would like a good set of snow tracks for there Argos. More snow then they can handle.
The only way we are going to get something different for tracks is to show there is a need. There has to be a market for a good track system for snow.. If you are happy with the status quo then why are we all trying to modify what we have?
If I had a good shop you are dam right I would be building a good aluminium frame to just bolt on the existing axles. With some sort of track system on that. You can take the ATV track system but make it the full length of the Argo Front axle drives is and the other axles are used as support. I would not be overly concerned about a suspension system, because the snow is a lot softer then the hard ground.
Oh maybe if I win the lotto then I could start doing some real experimenting.

Yes I am very Happy with the channel track. They right up there, top the line in a tracks system but so are the Adair and escargot tracks. They are all right up there, top of the line like All season tires. Do you get my point.
You already have the machine. ( the older ones are a little under powered) The new units are fine. Now we just need a good winter track. If you go too wide with the existing track system its to hard on the axles. Unless you have extensions on all axles .

[Buzz]

Thinking out loud here-
I think the key is to not over-do the wheel spacers. 2.5" are just fine. You can add additional width to the outside of a track (quite a bit) for extra floatation without adding all this extra "leverage" that people think you do. The machine still places its weight (and therefore leverage) on the tire. The track is not connected to the tire, nor does the track leverage the tire (my opinion thus far) Driving on a piece of plywood that is on top of the snow...or a 2x12 on the snow...the machine's axle/bearing/hub load is the same. The different width pieces of wood (just like different width tracks for example) are not connected to the tire directly...the tires simple drive on top of them. The leverage felt by your axle body, bearings, and hub flange is directly related to your wheel spacer width, vehicle load, "time" on your parts, and driving style. Although it makes for a wider wheelbase, a wide track can make for excellent performance and safe operation on your machine providing it is set up correctly. Standard wheel spacers and no more. HD axles and bearings and even bearing cages (bearing extensions) help as well. On the tracks we've run, we've specifically limited the inner belts to 4" because any wider would require wider wheel spacers for the +/- 1.5" tub clearance that should be present. I prefer to instead add additional width to the outside if wanted. Just thinking out loud. I think very few people have much experience running wider than 18 or 20" tracks on these machines. It can be done safely, and works very well. I'm all for new ideas, but you're still going to need width and will give up important qualities of your machine if the bouyant tires go away.

[john swenson]

i assume it would not work to have tracks on the aatv's i have seen with suspension. too much travel in the wheels for the track to stay on ? johnboy va.

[Old Tucker]

i assume it would not work to have tracks on the aatv's i have seen with suspension. too much travel in the wheels for the track to stay on ? johnboy va.

Its probably better to have them stationery. Less things to go wrong.

Buzz As for leverage on axles you are right to a point. Because the track will fold up when you hit something with the side of the track. And the leverage is determined by the distance between the bearing and the centre line of the tire. wheel spacers add a lot more leverage on the axle. As do, dual wheels.
What I have found with this style of track is, when you hit a soft snow bank the front of the argo will become high centred and you will not have the climbing ability to go over it. If you watch some of the videos of argos that have a wide track they all have the same problem. And they have to take runs at the snow bank to get through it. Now I am not talking about a bank pushed up by a plow. They are packed somewhat. its snow drifts, Very light soft snow. That is where these tracks have the most trouble. Because the weight of the argo is all on the front and the track set so far back from the front of the machine. Its simple physics of course the front is going to sink. I remember seeing a video of a fellow with the Adair track and winter kit with nice ice cleats. He could not go through the snow bank he just gave up. the front of the argo just sank out of site every time he tried to go through it
I get a kick out of some of the vides, they are going like a bat out of hell through the snow. Looks good but they are going down a steep hill.
Any way thats my take on it. We are trying to modify a bad design. Now I am speaking just as a snow track. In mud, swamps they are a very good track that would be hard to beat.

[Buzz]

You bet, you're saying what I'm saying- the tire position determines leverage. Always fun chatting with you Old Tucker. Bigger spacer = more leverage. But, going from an 18" or 20" (typical "wide" track) to a really wide 27-30" track with the same (2.5" standard) spacer doesn't add all this extra stress that I've heard people say it does.
In additions, all tracks (even very narrow ones) add additional lateral loads on the corner axles/bearings/hubs. That's why tracked machines get bearing extensions (and hopefully HD axles) as an upgrade. Set up the machine correctly, and you can run a very wide track..safely...I guess is my point.
We just don't have the track speed necessary (HP really) to cruise up a very steep/deep hill. Snowmachines can't do it either at very slow speeds, but they can accelerate and use momentum to help.
I would love to see your machine with a winter kit though. I think you'd have even more fun and be pleasantly surprised with your ability to stay on top most of the time. Plus we can do a lot of things and go a lot of places that snowmachines can't, all while carrying a bunch and staying warm. (If you're not in a hurry).

[riotwarrior]

Ok so this is still bugging me...how to mount track frames front and rear and the center like they do on quads...then wrap one larger track around the whole setup...this is to me a gooder plan LOL as the track frame pivots on the axle upwards at an angle to climb out of snow....I'm guessing/hoping.

[john swenson]

riot, seems to my visualization of the system your talking about means the rear axle would be the track drive and the center axles would still spin, but the boogie system that bolted to the center hubs would have a plate to match the hub bolts, and that plate mounted to a short shaft thru a bearing so they would freewheel. i think the whole thing for each side could be made to where you just unbolt the wheels, bolt on the system on each side and your off. just a general idea, still questions about space , clearance, etc. i'm thinking along the line of those one's like are mounted on pickup trucks. but each side would be one complete unit. anyway, keep thinking !! johnboy va.

[riotwarrior]

riot, seems to my visualization of the system your talking about means the rear axle would be the track drive and the center axles would still spin, but the boogie system that bolted to the center hubs would have a plate to match the hub bolts, and that plate mounted to a short shaft thru a bearing so they would freewheel. i think the whole thing for each side could be made to where you just unbolt the wheels, bolt on the system on each side and your off. just a general idea, still questions about space , clearance, etc. i'm thinking along the line of those one's like are mounted on pickup trucks. but each side would be one complete unit. anyway, keep thinking !! johnboy va.

See each of our machines is different in how the axles are supported.

For example if you dig in my muscateer thread you will see my outer bearing is about 1"-2" away from the flange the tyres mount on, this is a very very unique system and the only one of it's kind that I have seen... MUSCAT Corp only! I can quite simple mount a set of spacers on my axles inside and only drive ONE axle, or TWO or as I have now all three.

With spacers on the inside this would allow those axles to float and act as a pivot for a suspended system. or I could tie two of them together to provide a fixed point and only have one with some pivot capability, similar to what the do on Quads.

The idea is to unbolt wheels/tyres bolt on tracks for winter or what have you...

Just thinking outside the box here is all...

[ARGOJIM]

Seems you're off the original idea now, but this may be one reason the 4 corners may not work. Though the tracks may be closer on 6x6.

terra jet snow tracks - YouTube

[Noel Woods]

Seems you're off the original idea now, but this may be one reason the 4 corners may not work. Though the tracks may be closer on 6x6.

terra jet snow tracks - YouTube

That Terra Jet really sits up high with the tracks. That's a great look for a T.J. and I'm sure it performs well.