Escargo and Adair Tracks comparison

[Buzz]

lightweight plastic tracks and offset wheels would be a good option on a lightweight Max

[kghills]

Oh Oh, Sounds like anyone that has a Max, Max IV or Buffalo better hold on to their machines 'cause they might be classic cars now. Wonder how many units they'll be behind if someone orders a Max & how long it will take to get one of THEM now. Not relevant to track topic, but relevant to comment made. Bummer.


Bridget

Matt had 40 different Max machines built before he moved the production line from NY to IN. There are still a few left and the first machines to be made in IN are starting to roll off the line. While waiting to get the Max line up he was busy making Max parts in house so that when the line was up they had parts to build machines. At the same time Max dealers that have sot been actively selling and promoting the Max line are being dropped and Dealers more willing to activley sell and promote the line are being sought. On top of this the phone orders are being filled and shipped and new employees trained and prototype machines built and tested. From what I see when I visit there Mudd-Ox or Matt was a savior to the Max Machines. RI was a declining bussiness on it's way out so I can see quite the opposite and so do many others in the community. More has happened in the last 6 months to promote growth for the company than did in 6 years under Jay from what I can tell. Given the Max line has not changed really since each models introduction it can be argued that even a brand new machine is aready a "classic". That looks to be about to change. Who knows maybe Adair or Escargo tracks might be a factory option.

Glad to see your following the thread Bridget, even if you don't own tracks feel free to ask qiestions.

Kisses, Keith.

[Model Citizen]

I know Matt is up to around a Mudd-Ox a day and is still about 30 units behind.

Oh Oh, Sounds like anyone that has a Max, Max IV or Buffalo better hold on to their machines 'cause they might be classic cars now. Wonder how many units they'll be behind if someone orders a Max & how long it will take to get one of THEM now. Not relevant to track topic, but relevant to comment made. Bummer.


Bridget

[mightymaxIV]

So should I keep the Adair Tracks or try something else.

Wow Mark, the machine is awesome! Please keep the tracks on the springer, looks like it will have no limitations! I wanna see if we can get that machine stuck (doubt it). Two thumbs up!

[Buzz]

well rumor is rumor...who told you that (just curious). The Alaska argo dealer has always been really friendly to me, and I drive primarily mudd-ox's. I've always heard they were the largest argo dealership worldwide but I have no idea about sales #'s. Most new guys only know about the internet anyway, so there you go. It's getting more common to find all kinds of stuff in the lower 48 and figure out how to get it up here economically. But, it eventually ends up..up here or up in the oilfield. Lots of them.

at any rate, the point is most of the 8-wheeled machines are above the border..so to speak. I'm super glad to see some XL's headed up too. And, believe me, you'll see some with elevated belt-tracks trust me on that one, whether it means going to 26x12x12 tires or a custom track. It's just a matter of time. Now that will be an awesome machine...

[rockrewls]

Yes we have a lot of argo's in Canada, why? because we need them to get to a lot of areas in the north, the conditions are just that bad sometimes, as for Keith's comments YOU sir may not care about de-railment or climbing out of very nasty water log ridden situations or climbing over multiple crossed logs coming out of a steep valley with a moose in the back, climbing up the river banks that are a 1.5 mile climb and very very steep but up here in Canada some of us certainly do, and reliability in the bush is paramount.
therefore wanting to hear more about various elevated track designs the good the bad and the ugly, is what some of us are after gear reduction included, you may not have a problem with tracks de-railing or almost de-railing and I suspect its because you ride on trails made for quads mostly, well I don't and many of us don't.
As to calling down a track because its "Over built" personally I would gladly have an over built track then an under built track and cutting extension cords and hoses, give me a break where do you ride on your front lawn?
The fact you've stated you almost drove out of your tracks 4 times and over them once, in what to me would be minor trail conditions tells me a lot about the pro-series thanks for the info it helps me solidify that I will never own anything but an elevated track design.
I never realized just how prejudice some in this community can be without even trying something, I was that person for a while but im not now, I want facts, unedited videos, unbias comments, with all the information.
Keith if your happy with your tracks i'm glad for you, enjoy them, but don't come down on others trying to show just how good and possibly! "better" other tracks may be especially in diverse or extreme situations.

Rock

[kghills]

I am told most of the Argos shipped to Alaska are sold by dealers in the lower 48. Not supposed to work that way but something about people up there not caring to deal with the Alaska Argo dealer. Thats the rumor at least. I was told a year or so ago the number of Argos produced a year but have forgotten. That number may be somewhat relevant. I know Matt is up to around a Mudd-Ox a day and is still about 30 units behind. Trying to keep this somewhat on track here is a picture of the two Mudd-Ox just finished with Vendetta 26x16x12s and 20" wide Ripsaw and Chevron rubber tracks. The Alaska Mudd-Ox dealer is selling the XLs like crazy. Going to hunters is my understanding. Not with Adair or Escargo tracks either.


Keith

[Buzz]

somebody's got to know....which argo dealership sells the most machines? I really don't know- In years past, most of the machines could always be found in Alaska and Canada. But maybe they're selling like hotcakes down there? We do use them in "all-seasons" but many many guys use them as dedicated hunting rigs, because that is what they're best at. Snowmachines can be better, boats can be better, ATV's can be better at times. But for crossing all terrain types, carrying a load, towing, and climbing- the 8x8's are hard to beat. So of course, that's what I tend to focus my advice on.

For what it's worth. I think that recreational machines deserve to have some of the qualities of the escargo track too.....even if you think they're not needed.

[Buzz]

well if you can make me chuckle..you're alright. Most of the time.

[kghills]

Yes, the one video with the bay and mountains was breathtaking. I think you may be underestimating the size recreational market in a sense. Volume is hudge. It sort of makes your application the nitch of a nitch market. I usually try to look at sales numbers to validate the what is what. Besides it's obvious to me a truely intelligent person will always see things my way.

Keith.

[Buzz]

Come on Keith. Most people are very smart. I really don't think they will necessarily see things from your perspective...as convenient as that might be.

A lot of parts on argos need to be replaced entirely too often. Luckily they're improving this little by little. This is a big giant deal to people who use their machines for utility..even recreational utility like hunting. 8 wheels, loaded, towing, climbing, in all conditions. I have a certain level of respect for someone who is willing to banter back and forth. Facts and information need to come out. This part is cool.

Using your machine like many of us do up here, requires certain things. In my opinion, certain track styles make it much much easier and sucessful. The notion that an escargo track is overkill....hmm..well.
you know they say beating your head against the wall burns 150 calories an hour.

As for the wife riding along... I guess I'll just smile and shake my head. Don't you worry about my little ones either. I wish you could see the area. It's one of the few things that matter in life. Trying to go fast is not my style. It's really not good for much of anything with these machines. This is exactly why I think the 6-wheel crowd and terrain park goers really aren't the ones who should be giving track-advice to guys who use their 8-wheelers in Alaska conditions.

In regards to youtube...well. I'm as guilty as any there. But I can sleep at night after giving my opinion. BTW, I'm not claiming conspiracy. I'll never B.S. anyone..doesn't matter if it benefits me or not. The word is getting out about some of the "customers" who pile it on against escargo. Why would someone have to go there?

[kghills]

I know before I bought my first set of tracks I went to Beaver Dam Argo here in Wisconsin. I had read as much as I could about the subject on this forum as a non member and was set on buying an open grouser style track and Argo. At Beaver Dam Chris had both Adair UHMW grouser and Esacargo steel grouser tracks and both on machines. Chris even had more new Escargo tracks sitting on pallets. Without anyone getting there undies in a bundle here is what I remember thinking. Steel tracks? My toes curled up in my boots. I envisioned mud, marshes, swamps, woods, creeks, ponds for summer and frozen ponds with a little snow for the winter. I was upgrading from a Max II I bought new in 95 that ran 22" rawhides. When I looked at the Escargo tracks I honestly could not imagine what on earth anybody would want a set of those for. Here are a few questions that flashed through my head. How do you haul a machine with the Escargo tracks? My enclosed trailer has an aluminum door skin and the floor is checkerboard vinyl, my open trailer has a nice treated plywood deck. How would the seal coat on the asphalt look after I unloaded the machine. Any hose, extension cord or item left in the yard would be sliced and diced like Julian fries. Too me the Escargo tracks looked and still do like something for heavy equipment. I test drove a Frontier with Adair tracks because it looked "friendlier" for lack of a better description. The Adair tracks looked like something that was certainly better than tires, had an open design and looked like it was designed for an amphibious enthusiast not a construction company. At that time gear reduction, staying on better, frozen hill climbing meant very little to me. I am trying to state these things not because the Adair track is better than the Escargo track but because I think it is what a very large percentage of the market sees. A hobbiest/enthusiast looks at the Adair track and says OK and looks at the Escargo track and says construction equipment or commercial use, not for me. That's how I looked at it at least and I am thinking most of the people that you will find reporting on this forum probably come at it from the same angle. Now you also should try to remember the difference these people will see in performance compared to tires. I know I was almost in a state of disbelief. I took pictures and videos and you know still do. I'm thinking the commercial crowd doesn't. My guess is not seeing a bunch of posts about how wonderful Escargo tracks are has nothing to do with the performance of the tracks. Its the same reason I bet you don't see a bunch of posts about Mudd-Ox. The average Mudd-Ox owner just is not going to post, they have work to do and it probably involves using their Machine. It has nothing to do with conspiracy or the structure of the forum unless you consider that the site is most populated by enthusiasts, and if enthusiasts tend to choose Adair tracks I guess you need to figure Escargo owners are just out numbered. That's my take at least.

Now since my Argo Bigfoot purchase which I fitted with Adair tracks I have also owned a Max IV with waffle tracks and an Attex with plastic tracks. I have to say that most all the information presented on the forum about these kind of tracks is accurate and I chose to purchase a second set of Adair tracks to fit on the Max IV. I have to honestly say I have not experienced any problems that would cause me to say "holy crap, I need to be careful or I will loose a track". I have probably 4 times got an Adair track close, even twisted the entire track under at Haspin but my machine just does not have the power to work the grouser of the mud and snow track off the tires. I'm not saying the elevated design of the Escargo is not better at staying on I am just saying I personally am not seeing the need for it and therefore am not seeing it as an advantage. That is what you are also hearing from a large number of Adair track owners. I honestly believe if throwing Adair tracks was any sort of problem at all you would see all sorts of complaints posted, pictures and videos etc. I mean how could you stop them. Tire pressure with Adair tracks is not really as critical as I keep hearing implied is also my experience anywhere between 4-7 depending on tire profile is what I am seeing people run. I run anywhere between 3-6 personally. It is nowhere near as critical as it is with rubber tracks. The gear reduction I now understand and I can see that as a big deal or advantage for the elevated belt design. While I understand it for an Argo I still think with a Mudd-Ox turbo diesel who would care, I know Matt doesn't seem to. Tracks for me is what makes my machine do what I want.

I think it's OK to argue back and forth about the tracks. Name calling doesn't really even bother me to tell you the truth. Check out a diesel truck forum. Chevy vs Dodge vs Ford. Most of those guys are VERY brand passionate. I also guess I am not seeing any real deceit. There are just too many pictures and videos that usually accompany the information that people are trying to convey. I appreciate the recent surge in Escargo pictures and videos. I think there is a definite lack of owners posting but as I said previously I sort of expect it and it has nothing to do with the performance. Escargo owners: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE KEEP THE INFORMATION COMING.

Now back to knowledge seeking. I have question about tire wear with the Escargo tracks. What are you seeing? I know with the UHMW grousers my Rawhides have only the slightest rounding of some of the lugs and no sidewall wear at all after 100hrs. How does an Escargo track work with tires. I know my Rawhides that ran inside of my rubber waffle tracks definitely saw some wear but it did not seem to be that big a deal I could just tell they had been run in tracks. I also understand the Escargo tracks have been around a long time. Any owners that have had them a long time? What is the wear item on them if anything.

And a special paragraph of my Buzz length post for Buzz himself. I think the owners of Adair tracks really at heart like all tracks, and understandably probably Adair tracks most. Your Mudd-Ox lost an Adair Pro series track. That's good information. I think a lot of people were really interested in how it happened. They asked for pictures of the tires and tracks on your machine. You have to realize most were in problem solving mode at this point. Their not saying how could you do that, but "how could you do that?" with a question mark, myself included. When others offered pictures and comments on profiles and such it seemed too easily dismissed. I think this is what got most people no longer interested in any sort of positive dialog. I mean really, pregnant wife berry picking? First off I am thinking how many months along is she? My wife waddled around for at least the last three and being hoisted up into a vehicle with no suspension to drive to only god knows where breathing diesel exhaust then dumped out into a pricker patch to scrounge for a few berries. Were you trying to induce labor? You sure she wasn't thinking about killing you before you lost a track? Even though that whole sort of saga sort of sounds a bit off to us less hardier folks. I do have to thank you for sharing your perspective of the Escargo steel grouser and the steel insert in a UWMW grouser. The terrain you show and the performance of such configurations was previously unknown to me. Without you taking the time to explain and present examples I do not think I would have understood why on earth a person would opt for such an aggressive design.

Oh and you might want to keep the little one away from those Escargo grousers. They look like they could cut someone. Keith.

[jerseybigfoot]

Well Marc, you see your machine lacks low gear and is most likely useless without it. Additionally, without a triple limited slip differential, it is just old technology that hasn't been updated since the late 60's. Also, I don't know if we ever came to the conclusion that springers are worth it, but then you go and throw some recycled hdpe tracks on there. Everyone knows the cross binder material is way better here. And seriously doughnuts it the front yard is just not how these machines were designed to be driven. They need more challenging terrain than a rose garden. Oh wait. That is just envy being displayed. Obviously you built a great trail ready machine prior to the tracks. I rode next to you and it was awesome. Then you took it to the next level. Even I had doubts that a track would work on a springer, but you proved they would. And low gear, well it's just not needed on a t-20. They are much more efficient at putting the power at the wheels than any Argo design. Oh yeah, finally you choose a track with great consumer feedback from a company with an outstanding reputation. Some may not be impressed, but I feel like I just got to see a glimps of what the future in our hobby has to hold for us. If that doesn't make the side by side crowd drool, they don't have their eyes open.

Drew loved the write up. Thanks for the belly laugh.
no seriously a tracked springer is a whole nother machine. I do have an older Argo 8 project in the works. Might have to rethink the track program for that.

[Old Tucker]

The nice thing about this site is. We can share info. Thats how I learn. Buy listening to what different track owners have to say. And making phone calls. As you all know I am a chanel track fan and I would put them up there with the Escargo. Comparing them to the Escargo. The big difference is the crosser, the Escargo has a lot taller crosser that will give you more bit. Other then that they are about the same. Impossible to walk out of. The only thing I would change is if I ordered a new set is I would go to a six inch outer belt instead of the four inch. Yes I did add paddles, now the paddle surface area is about the same as the Escargo track. What I did with my tracks and what Buzz does with his, and what Joe does with his Adair tracks. Is something we all can learn from. That is what the forum is all about.
If I had the $ I would of gone to the Escargo. But I am very happy with the chanel track and I have had no ensues with them at all. I would love to go to a winter kit on them. But then I would be looking at a new trailer. And the wife said ( No I will not say it on here.).
I thank every one on here for their input on different tracks. And every ones snow is a little different. Buzz clears his sidewalk with a leaf blower because the snow is so dry and our dry snow you still have to shovel. When and if it ever snows again.
I tillered my garden the other day. Getting it ready to plant.

[rockrewls]

Agreed Fox, there are many many factors to consider when buying a track, first is your budget what can you afford, are you willing to wait and save for something that might work better, what is your ride environment or terrain like, how many seasons of the year are you riding in and will this track suit those seasons, which track can offer the best positives and least amount of negatives for my ride style and environment.
What is the life expectancy of the track I choose, will the track de-rail under loose or low pressure circumstances, side hilling and/or heavy loaded conditions, there are many more factors im sure im missing, but if a person is to make a well informed decision they need real life testimonies good bad or otherwise, a full picture so to speak, not some individual trying to brand protect what may have not been as good an investment as they could have made, saying yours is the best knowing that you've had to do things "extreme tire inflation, repairs, de-railment issues etc" in the back ground and not relaying to others doesn't help the community make informed decisions.

Rock