Escargo and Adair Tracks comparison

[Buzz]

again, I'll just shake my head and smile
for the mud bogs and terrain parks you don't need the tracks that I recommend to people. That's the reality.

But when I say heavy, I mean heavy. You load your machine up, and frequently you also tow a heavy tandem-axle trailer as well. Fuel does become an important part of your cargo. (Not as much with the kubota that's for sure )

You might think that your machine has plenty of power. But I can guarantee you it doesn't if you load it up and try to climb out of a valley (if you're able to grip well enough). Especially if you're towing. You need all the extra power you can get. And an elevated belt track that also has agressive cleat height for serious "bite" will get the job done...but it requires power. The the qualities of the track go hand in hand.
Pushing a car on flat ground is easy. Pushing it up a hill and the power required grows exponentially...especially as you add cargo or towing weight.
Someday you'll see my point. But, then again you don't live where I do or do the things I expect my machine to do successfully.
Just because your machine goes in the mud (empty), doesn't mean it's going to work well with a load and over all transitional terrain types.

Gear reduction improves fuel economy. How could you suggest otherwise. Aaah, uuum.......shaking my head again I guess when you suggest the opposite.

[rockrewls]

Everybody knows that. And yes the Boss Vplow is plastic.


My reference to construction equipment is not meant to be derogatory. Its just the most vivid image for comparison that I get when I look at the all metal grousers. Going from tires to tracks the plastic grousers was was more a consistent visual extension of the plastic body for me while the all metal grousers almost become a secondary design element with an identity all themselves even more pronounced. Metal additions are not on my tracks. I like the 18.5 Adair mud and snow tracks because they are a somewhat flat track. I do not sink down as far before my side plates try to give me flotation and my overall width is less while still getting the benefits of the larger side plates for floatation. In Marshes, mud, sand and snow I get a ton of flotation for the overall width of the track. It is all UHMW however and lacks the ability to grab frozen terrain such as what you are describing.

I'm actually more interested in your application. Do you have a fuel hauler? What do you do to be able to get to the remote cabin and then still have fuel to explore/hunt/haul. It would seem fuel would become somewhat problematic. I'm guessing your base camp must end up being some sort of fuel depot. Doesn't gearing your machines down make the fuel consumption even worse? Just sort of curious.

Keith.

Well to be honest I could care less about visual extensions or aesthetics , I want reliability and performance in all conditions, and yes fuel is a factor and we have to carry about 130 gallons in when we go, and no, having a gear reduction would actually save fuel because I can use less throttle to do more, not only do we drive in a long way but then we have to travel through some very bad areas to get where we want to go, the river banks near our hunting area are up to 1.5 miles from the river and very steep, climbing them is not an easy task, especially with trees laying crisscrossed in front of you on the hill side.
we don't drive fast, in fact we travel nice and slow its easier on the machines and you can watch for game as you travel to the area your going to hunt in.
Argo's are actually very good on fuel if your drive them at a reasonable throttle, it's when you really open them up they are quite a bit harder on your fuel supply, which makes sense with any piece of equipment really.
im glad your track design works for you, on the type of trails you run on, but those trail types are not what we all run on, hence the reason for different designs and track make up's, I personally need a elevated track design, I can risk troubles with a flat track design under my circumstances.

Rock

[kghills]

What kind of snow depth do you see typically Rock? 130 gallons? Holly crap. That's 858 pounds right there. How do you end up caring it? My max struggles in deep snow just pulling a utility trailer with wood. I would imagine having the track tuners makes some improvement in economy alone. Your choice in tracks is making much more sense to me for your conditions. Any pictures from your hunting area and what do you typically hunt?

Keith.

[Buzz]

sometimes I just find you hard to believe Keith (no offense)
Paaaalease don't pretend to be so clueless and make claims out of context.

Knowing what I know, I could only guess....moose.....in the fall....geez

Very deep snow with that kind of weight might require a snow-cat like track....oh wait...kinda like an escargo with a winter kit..lotsa floatation, giant paddles, and the gear reduction to turn it.

I know my red mudd-ox was heavy sitting on that track set up, and it did excellent. I can only imagine what a light conquest or argo avenger would do.

Sorry for reposting the same old videos but Keith did it
this is actually 3 feet of snow.

[Buzz]

oops there you go

[kghills]

I'm not a sportsman but have friends that are and do find it interesting. What time of year do you hunt Caribou then? Or any dangerous game (not like an upset moose isn't dangerous) how about Grizzly? Do you need to pack the moose out right away before the bears find you? A damn moose has got to go over 800 pounds. Do you just figure it offsets the fuel you hauled in. I would think you would have to think about all these kinds of things or you could be screwed big time no matter what tracks you had.

Keith.

[Model Citizen]

Matt had 40 different Max machines built before he moved the production line from NY to IN. There are still a few left and the first machines to be made in IN are starting to roll off the line. While waiting to get the Max line up he was busy making Max parts in house so that when the line was up they had parts to build machines. At the same time Max dealers that have sot been actively selling and promoting the Max line are being dropped and Dealers more willing to activley sell and promote the line are being sought. On top of this the phone orders are being filled and shipped and new employees trained and prototype machines built and tested. From what I see when I visit there Mudd-Ox or Matt was a savior to the Max Machines. RI was a declining bussiness on it's way out so I can see quite the opposite and so do many others in the community. More has happened in the last 6 months to promote growth for the company than did in 6 years under Jay from what I can tell. Given the Max line has not changed really since each models introduction it can be argued that even a brand new machine is aready a "classic". That looks to be about to change. Who knows maybe Adair or Escargo tracks might be a factory option.

Glad to see your following the thread Bridget, even if you don't own tracks feel free to ask qiestions.

Kisses, Keith.

Sorry track guys. Really appreciate reading the discussions on tracks even though they certainly aren't something that would work for us, but you guys know & understand that, don't you? We all do what we need to do to enjoy our machines.
Just can't let this post slide. I guess this quote should make us feel all warm & fuzzy. Only one person ever posts about this kind of stuff & no one can verify any of it, can we? It's always one person's comment for the most part. I guess I'm beginning to think someone is on someone's payroll. Is it just me? No one from the Buffalo R.I. or even from Argo EVER posted anything about their operations. Not sure this is information any of us need. I'm not ready to let one person's comments make me roll over & say "O.K. I feel so much better now."
I'm curious as to how many dealers "dropped" their dealership on their own, because of the sale? How does a company that WAS so poorly run survive 40 YEARS? I'm not ready to believe everything I hear. Some people may know more than I think they know, but one can also NOT know what THEY think they know.
And..sorry, but I only have one Saviour.

Bridget

[Buzz]

Keith, we actually never think about anything when we prepare for a hunt in the backcountry. I just cross my fingers and hope for the best Mom just sticks a $20 bill on our back and wishes us the best of luck.
uuum....sometimes things are just better left alone..

I know you understand rpms and load, fuel burn and such...right?

[rockrewls]

What kind of snow depth do you see typically Rock? 130 gallons? Holly crap. That's 858 pounds right there. How do you end up caring it? My max struggles in deep snow just pulling a utility trailer with wood. I would imagine having the track tuners makes some improvement in economy alone. Your choice in tracks is making much more sense to me for your conditions. Any pictures from your hunting area and what do you typically hunt?

Keith.

We get around 3 to 4 ft sometimes more sometimes less, and your weight calculation is a little off it would be around 910lbs our gallon is larger we are at around 7lbs per gallon, as well the weigh of the gear, food, clothes, guns, tools etc would be on top of that we haul it in on 2; 8 wheel argo's and, Moose is what we hunt. I have personally have carried 2 moose out on 1 argo while the other took all the gear etc so as you can see a lot of weight.
We typically like to only have 1 moose plus gear per argo, but if you have fuel cans with you that's not possible as the fuel itself or the fumes its produces will taint the meat if in the same machine. As well if fuel has spilled into the machine by some chance you cant carry meat in it until its been very well cleaned.
I currently have no video's or real pictures to show, too be honest I really have no time for it, when we are hunting we are focused on that not on running video equipment.
I may in the future try to get some video together for this community.

Rock

[rockrewls]

oops there you go

Goes really well thanks for the vid. Looks like 3" crosser spacing on those correct?

Rock

[Buzz]

rock, that track was on 4-inch centers at the time and weighed a bit more (naturally) than the tracks on 5-inch centers...maybe 25-30 lbs.

the tracks were floating probably more like 3000 lbs altogether and did great. I'd like to try the same with the diesel as it's got a frame that's much lighter/stronger and same thing with the axles...meaning no wheel spacers. So it wouldn't be any heavier with the same footprint. The warranty period is long over on the Kubota (I don't care it's a 40,000 hr engine), so I'd like to juice it up a bit to see if I can maintain track speed a bit better at the higher end of the sticks under load. It's geared low right now. I'd like a little more grunt in the 7-10 mph range to maybe get a little momentum in "loose" or deep snow conditions.

[rockrewls]

Yeah they did a great job, I understand the newest edition of them is 5" spacing what are your thoughts on that verses 3 or 4" aside from the weight savings??
Yeah Kubota engine's are one of the, if not the best engines out there!!
Rock

[Buzz]

Yeah they did a great job, I understand the newest edition of them is 5" spacing what are your thoughts on that verses 3 or 4" aside from the weight savings??
Yeah Kubota engine's are one of the, if not the best engines out there!!
Rock

I don't think you can kill a kubota!

crossers closer together makes for a smoother ride and center tires slip a little easier.

crossers farther apart are more aggressive (each crosser bites harder), cleans out better, but ride is bumpier on hardback. Of course everything is bumpier on hardpack. I've found that your tires affect this as much as anything.

I like 4 to 4.5" spacing on smaller tires like the 22's.... and 4.5 to 5" on the larger tires.

[kghills]

We get around 3 to 4 ft sometimes more sometimes less, and your weight calculation is a little off it would be around 910lbs our gallon is larger we are at around 7lbs per gallon, as well the weigh of the gear, food, clothes, guns, tools etc would be on top of that we haul it in on 2; 8 wheel argo's and, Moose is what we hunt. I have personally have carried 2 moose out on 1 argo while the other took all the gear etc so as you can see a lot of weight.
We typically like to only have 1 moose plus gear per argo, but if you have fuel cans with you that's not possible as the fuel itself or the fumes its produces will taint the meat if in the same machine. As well if fuel has spilled into the machine by some chance you cant carry meat in it until its been very well cleaned.
I currently have no video's or real pictures to show, too be honest I really have no time for it, when we are hunting we are focused on that not on running video equipment.
I may in the future try to get some video together for this community.

Rock

Rock I understand the no video as it is probably pretty hard to dump someone off in 4" of snow to take pictures when you are trying to get some place. Us ATV park guys have an advantage there I guess. Your hunting sounds like nothing the whitetail guys here do. Some of my friends Elk hunt out west but even that sounds far less remote. I can see where loaded up with gear you would be working that equipment pretty hard. I know how giant a Moose can be. It is hard for me to imagine trying to haul one or two back WITH all your gear and fuel containers. Don't sound like no fishin trip. You really do need to take a couple pictures for us the next time you get a Moose. If you remember PM me at least. I would really like to show my buddies.

oops there you go

I love that video Buzz, especially when you jump out. Thats almost the best part. I going to work you here a bit again though. With that video the terrain is exactly how I pictured what you were needing tracks for. Not the frozen dirt and rocks and stuff you showed in the other video. To me a flat track in that like the Adair given an equal width would seem to have an advantage in flotation. Sort of like the videos I posted. What do you think?

And on fuel consumption. In my arena we call it BSFC. Brake Specific Fuel Consumpion. Usually an engine is making the most power around .400 on my dyno. But max safe power for a NA engine has an AF ratio of about 12.5 at WOT and that will not give the best fuel economy. I guess I am not understanding where the economy difference in the track design comes from. Not needing to drive the inner wheels due to using track tuners makes the most sense to me. Are you saying the elevated design allows you to ease out of the throttle to increase engine vacuum and mileage at cursing speed? I would think that would be more a function of over all gearing. Maybe if the machine was under powered or geared wrong to begin with but say with an Argo with high and low range aren't you close?

Keith.

[rockrewls]

The fuel economy is easy to understand Keith bigger loads require more gear reduction and will work the engine less, its that simple, if your only ridding around empty it wouldn't matter what track you run, but many people don't run around empty.
Its no different then a truck pulling a load if you reduce your gear reduction it helps pull the load easier, a high ratio would require a far larger load on the engine to pull the same load thus fuel economy is less.
Ill do what I can on the pics but that wont happen until fall.
Rock