Escargo and Adair Tracks comparison

[rockrewls]

oops there you go

Goes really well thanks for the vid. Looks like 3" crosser spacing on those correct?

Rock

[rockrewls]

What kind of snow depth do you see typically Rock? 130 gallons? Holly crap. That's 858 pounds right there. How do you end up caring it? My max struggles in deep snow just pulling a utility trailer with wood. I would imagine having the track tuners makes some improvement in economy alone. Your choice in tracks is making much more sense to me for your conditions. Any pictures from your hunting area and what do you typically hunt?

Keith.

We get around 3 to 4 ft sometimes more sometimes less, and your weight calculation is a little off it would be around 910lbs our gallon is larger we are at around 7lbs per gallon, as well the weigh of the gear, food, clothes, guns, tools etc would be on top of that we haul it in on 2; 8 wheel argo's and, Moose is what we hunt. I have personally have carried 2 moose out on 1 argo while the other took all the gear etc so as you can see a lot of weight.
We typically like to only have 1 moose plus gear per argo, but if you have fuel cans with you that's not possible as the fuel itself or the fumes its produces will taint the meat if in the same machine. As well if fuel has spilled into the machine by some chance you cant carry meat in it until its been very well cleaned.
I currently have no video's or real pictures to show, too be honest I really have no time for it, when we are hunting we are focused on that not on running video equipment.
I may in the future try to get some video together for this community.

Rock

[Buzz]

Keith, we actually never think about anything when we prepare for a hunt in the backcountry. I just cross my fingers and hope for the best Mom just sticks a $20 bill on our back and wishes us the best of luck.
uuum....sometimes things are just better left alone..

I know you understand rpms and load, fuel burn and such...right?

[Model Citizen]

Matt had 40 different Max machines built before he moved the production line from NY to IN. There are still a few left and the first machines to be made in IN are starting to roll off the line. While waiting to get the Max line up he was busy making Max parts in house so that when the line was up they had parts to build machines. At the same time Max dealers that have sot been actively selling and promoting the Max line are being dropped and Dealers more willing to activley sell and promote the line are being sought. On top of this the phone orders are being filled and shipped and new employees trained and prototype machines built and tested. From what I see when I visit there Mudd-Ox or Matt was a savior to the Max Machines. RI was a declining bussiness on it's way out so I can see quite the opposite and so do many others in the community. More has happened in the last 6 months to promote growth for the company than did in 6 years under Jay from what I can tell. Given the Max line has not changed really since each models introduction it can be argued that even a brand new machine is aready a "classic". That looks to be about to change. Who knows maybe Adair or Escargo tracks might be a factory option.

Glad to see your following the thread Bridget, even if you don't own tracks feel free to ask qiestions.

Kisses, Keith.

Sorry track guys. Really appreciate reading the discussions on tracks even though they certainly aren't something that would work for us, but you guys know & understand that, don't you? We all do what we need to do to enjoy our machines.
Just can't let this post slide. I guess this quote should make us feel all warm & fuzzy. Only one person ever posts about this kind of stuff & no one can verify any of it, can we? It's always one person's comment for the most part. I guess I'm beginning to think someone is on someone's payroll. Is it just me? No one from the Buffalo R.I. or even from Argo EVER posted anything about their operations. Not sure this is information any of us need. I'm not ready to let one person's comments make me roll over & say "O.K. I feel so much better now."
I'm curious as to how many dealers "dropped" their dealership on their own, because of the sale? How does a company that WAS so poorly run survive 40 YEARS? I'm not ready to believe everything I hear. Some people may know more than I think they know, but one can also NOT know what THEY think they know.
And..sorry, but I only have one Saviour.

Bridget

[kghills]

I'm not a sportsman but have friends that are and do find it interesting. What time of year do you hunt Caribou then? Or any dangerous game (not like an upset moose isn't dangerous) how about Grizzly? Do you need to pack the moose out right away before the bears find you? A damn moose has got to go over 800 pounds. Do you just figure it offsets the fuel you hauled in. I would think you would have to think about all these kinds of things or you could be screwed big time no matter what tracks you had.

Keith.

[Buzz]

oops there you go

[Buzz]

sometimes I just find you hard to believe Keith (no offense)
Paaaalease don't pretend to be so clueless and make claims out of context.

Knowing what I know, I could only guess....moose.....in the fall....geez

Very deep snow with that kind of weight might require a snow-cat like track....oh wait...kinda like an escargo with a winter kit..lotsa floatation, giant paddles, and the gear reduction to turn it.

I know my red mudd-ox was heavy sitting on that track set up, and it did excellent. I can only imagine what a light conquest or argo avenger would do.

Sorry for reposting the same old videos but Keith did it
this is actually 3 feet of snow.

[kghills]

What kind of snow depth do you see typically Rock? 130 gallons? Holly crap. That's 858 pounds right there. How do you end up caring it? My max struggles in deep snow just pulling a utility trailer with wood. I would imagine having the track tuners makes some improvement in economy alone. Your choice in tracks is making much more sense to me for your conditions. Any pictures from your hunting area and what do you typically hunt?

Keith.

[rockrewls]

Everybody knows that. And yes the Boss Vplow is plastic.


My reference to construction equipment is not meant to be derogatory. Its just the most vivid image for comparison that I get when I look at the all metal grousers. Going from tires to tracks the plastic grousers was was more a consistent visual extension of the plastic body for me while the all metal grousers almost become a secondary design element with an identity all themselves even more pronounced. Metal additions are not on my tracks. I like the 18.5 Adair mud and snow tracks because they are a somewhat flat track. I do not sink down as far before my side plates try to give me flotation and my overall width is less while still getting the benefits of the larger side plates for floatation. In Marshes, mud, sand and snow I get a ton of flotation for the overall width of the track. It is all UHMW however and lacks the ability to grab frozen terrain such as what you are describing.

I'm actually more interested in your application. Do you have a fuel hauler? What do you do to be able to get to the remote cabin and then still have fuel to explore/hunt/haul. It would seem fuel would become somewhat problematic. I'm guessing your base camp must end up being some sort of fuel depot. Doesn't gearing your machines down make the fuel consumption even worse? Just sort of curious.

Keith.

Well to be honest I could care less about visual extensions or aesthetics , I want reliability and performance in all conditions, and yes fuel is a factor and we have to carry about 130 gallons in when we go, and no, having a gear reduction would actually save fuel because I can use less throttle to do more, not only do we drive in a long way but then we have to travel through some very bad areas to get where we want to go, the river banks near our hunting area are up to 1.5 miles from the river and very steep, climbing them is not an easy task, especially with trees laying crisscrossed in front of you on the hill side.
we don't drive fast, in fact we travel nice and slow its easier on the machines and you can watch for game as you travel to the area your going to hunt in.
Argo's are actually very good on fuel if your drive them at a reasonable throttle, it's when you really open them up they are quite a bit harder on your fuel supply, which makes sense with any piece of equipment really.
im glad your track design works for you, on the type of trails you run on, but those trail types are not what we all run on, hence the reason for different designs and track make up's, I personally need a elevated track design, I can risk troubles with a flat track design under my circumstances.

Rock

[Buzz]

again, I'll just shake my head and smile
for the mud bogs and terrain parks you don't need the tracks that I recommend to people. That's the reality.

But when I say heavy, I mean heavy. You load your machine up, and frequently you also tow a heavy tandem-axle trailer as well. Fuel does become an important part of your cargo. (Not as much with the kubota that's for sure )

You might think that your machine has plenty of power. But I can guarantee you it doesn't if you load it up and try to climb out of a valley (if you're able to grip well enough). Especially if you're towing. You need all the extra power you can get. And an elevated belt track that also has agressive cleat height for serious "bite" will get the job done...but it requires power. The the qualities of the track go hand in hand.
Pushing a car on flat ground is easy. Pushing it up a hill and the power required grows exponentially...especially as you add cargo or towing weight.
Someday you'll see my point. But, then again you don't live where I do or do the things I expect my machine to do successfully.
Just because your machine goes in the mud (empty), doesn't mean it's going to work well with a load and over all transitional terrain types.

Gear reduction improves fuel economy. How could you suggest otherwise. Aaah, uuum.......shaking my head again I guess when you suggest the opposite.

[kghills]

Time to make this tread interesting.....

My FORD is better then your chev.....notice how chev is in small letters....hahaha...

Everybody knows that. And yes the Boss Vplow is plastic.


My reference to construction equipment is not meant to be derogatory. Its just the most vivid image for comparison that I get when I look at the all metal grousers. Going from tires to tracks the plastic grousers was was more a consistent visual extension of the plastic body for me while the all metal grousers almost become a secondary design element with an identity all themselves even more pronounced. Metal additions are not on my tracks. I like the 18.5 Adair mud and snow tracks because they are a somewhat flat track. I do not sink down as far before my side plates try to give me flotation and my overall width is less while still getting the benefits of the larger side plates for floatation. In Marshes, mud, sand and snow I get a ton of flotation for the overall width of the track. It is all UHMW however and lacks the ability to grab frozen terrain such as what you are describing.

I'm actually more interested in your application. Do you have a fuel hauler? What do you do to be able to get to the remote cabin and then still have fuel to explore/hunt/haul. It would seem fuel would become somewhat problematic. I'm guessing your base camp must end up being some sort of fuel depot. Doesn't gearing your machines down make the fuel consumption even worse? Just sort of curious.

Keith.

[Buzz]

some tracks
-grip and climb better and add additional power to do it
-go better in the mudd (paddle surface area, belt floatation, clean-out area)
-turn better in the sticky or soft stuff to save your drivetrain. Again, they provide extra power to do it
-don't fall off
-work on big tires, 8 wheels and heavy loads.

Some don't

[guyfox]

Time to make this tread interesting.....

My FORD is better then your chev.....notice how chev is in small letters....hahaha

From what I have been reading everyone thinks that their track design is the "better" option..My honest opinion is that what works best for you in your conditions will be the best for you....

Some people can read and write what they want but will not deter someone from buying a chev when they should buy a FORD (again). It is nice to see all the info out there weather it be goood, the bad or the ugly.

Just because one thrack design do not work best for you does not mean that it will not work for someone else.....Keep it clean....except for your machines....Love to see videos of them in the mud nice and dirty....

[rockrewls]

Keith, im glad you see my point, and no I don't drive around my yard on my lawn because I think that's just silly JMO, I use my machine in the bush and im not talking a mile from home, my hunting grounds are 60 miles from my house by vehicle and then another 40- 50 miles from the vehicle base, so you see your track selection would never work for me, I need the reliability of an elevated track system.
I don't know why you think adair elevated tracks make your machine like a D9 im puzzled by your continuous reference to construction equipment, I assume your only referring to the escargo or chanel track systems, I would think instead of judging those tracks on the surfaces you mentioned you might ask someone how they perform instead of slamming them with bias BS, I've seen all the video's by the way at least 2 of those videos include the addition of metal added traction devices to make the tracks work properly, I guess there goes your asphalt and, trailer surfaces, hoses and cords theory according to your thinking anyway, as soon as you add metal traction the weight of your tracks has now increased to almost as much as an escargo track system, aside from the fact it would make them extremely hard to turn under a load as the traction devices are always dug into the ground.
with elevated track systems any additional traction devices can be added and be elevated until you go into, water, mud, skeg, peat holes, which would them aid in traction but as soon as your out the traction device is elevated and not a hindrance to the machine.
Obviously with escargo and chanel track systems additional traction may not be required and with the adair system you can add traction to the elevated belt for when you need it and still have the great turning ability and floatation of UHMW crossers on the ground.
As you can see i'm not against adair at all although you seem to indicate it, what im not partial to is a flat track design, at least for where I live and for what I do.

Rock

[kghills]

lightweight plastic tracks and offset wheels would be a good option on a lightweight Max

Does Escargo make a track that would fit a Max Buffalo? That might fit some peoples application pretty good in frozen stuff maybe?

Yes we have a lot of argo's in Canada, why? because we need them to get to a lot of areas in the north, the conditions are just that bad sometimes, as for Keith's comments YOU sir may not care about de-railment or climbing out of very nasty water log ridden situations or climbing over multiple crossed logs coming out of a steep valley with a moose in the back, climbing up the river banks that are a 1.5 mile climb and very very steep but up here in Canada some of us certainly do, and reliability in the bush is paramount.
therefore wanting to hear more about various elevated track designs the good the bad and the ugly, is what some of us are after gear reduction included, you may not have a problem with tracks de-railing or almost de-railing and I suspect its because you ride on trails made for quads mostly, well I don't and many of us don't.
As to calling down a track because its "Over built" personally I would gladly have an over built track then an under built track and cutting extension cords and hoses, give me a break where do you ride on your front lawn?
The fact you've stated you almost drove out of your tracks 4 times and over them once, in what to me would be minor trail conditions tells me a lot about the pro-series thanks for the info it helps me solidify that I will never own anything but an elevated track design.
I never realized just how prejudice some in this community can be without even trying something, I was that person for a while but im not now, I want facts, unedited videos, unbias comments, with all the information.
Keith if your happy with your tracks i'm glad for you, enjoy them, but don't come down on others trying to show just how good and possibly! "better" other tracks may be especially in diverse or extreme situations.

Rock

Rock, your points are very well taken thank you. Yes I do ride in my front yard and back yard etc. That is why I bought my first machine for in 95 and still own an AMPHIB. My previous lengthy post tried to explain this and the number of machines that are purely recreational thus the reasoning behind that group of owners and the representation in percentages you see responding and buying/promoting certain kinds of tracks. Sorry if you were offended by my impressions and reasoning for purchasing my brand of track but I also do not plow my driveway with a D9 Cat even though it is about a half mile long. If you have no problems with hoses, cords, small children etc. do you have an opinion on asphalt driveways trailers tire wear etc. or do you find those points irrelevant also. If you do that's fine. From what I understand the elevated design is impossible to derail and I understand why you would choose it. That would certainly be a consideration because loosing a track in the middle of nowhere would suck.

Here is a video of my favorite back yard to drive in, Dougs.

As a hobbyist/enthusiast I tend to run my tires as low as possible for ride, around 3psi when I can. I am told this is a bit low after Haspin have them up around 6psi. With the older chain style Adair tracks there is a need to remove a half link or link after a time. At around 100hrs I guess I'm do. But my machine is probably not what a backwoodsman like yourself is interested in at all so here is a little of Dougs stuff from his back yard.

And at the neibors.

But here again I have heard that an Argo may not be the most reliable machine itself so I guess who the heck really knows.

Keith, who if I lived in Alaska would have an old Nodwell so fast it would make your head spin. I think those old things are the coolest.